New Fighting Tomahawk Designs

Sun Helmet,

I love tomahawks, and have several, but I’ve always been concerned about historical accuracy, even as its being written. I’ll phrase my concern a little differently than Bubbanumber1. I served almost 22 years in the military; in Desert Storm, Balkans, and Afghanistan, retired just over a year ago and I’m a contractor now that still shows the flag in the AOR. I also spent allot of time with foreign militaries such as the Brits, Russians, Ukrainians, and I spent almost a year in Israel on and off with the IDF. I’ve worked around our and foreign SOF also and in all that time I’ve NEVER seen a tomahawk in the field. I’ve seen guys carry all manner of knives, small hatchets, sharpened old straight handled e-tools (I used to carry one myself, superb tool and weapon), and once a woodsman’s pal, but nary a tomahawk. I see hero shots of troops posted on companies web sites, and there was an article a couple of years ago in Army Times as I recall about new field gear, but for all that I’ve never seen a first person story about their use in the field, or any similar endorsement. I’ve seen young soldiers deploy with all manner of commercial bought kit that they dumped or sent home quickly when they realized it wasn’t going to be of much use, especially given the huge amount of gear weight they have to lug anyway. If your so close to the subject then please do history a favor and get something posted by an actual user.
 
DWinkler said:
Bubbanumber1,

I understand that there are a lot of knives and axes out there that are promoted as "Special Forces", "Special Operations" etc. and the majority may very well be hype and bull****. However I personally don't speculate on who is actually legitimate and who is not. The “Operators” that use the stuff know who they deal with and what works for them. The public has the opportunity to gather information and make decisions based on lies or truth about how designs were developed and how products are manufactured. Based on my years in the knife business I have found that most makers and factories are pretty honest, not all but most. They do all have to use some form of marketing to sell their products. Those that don’t you will probably never hear about. Having Military connections is helpful with both design development and marketing because these guy’s really sometimes use their cutlery in a combat situation. It’s true that just about all the time a gun or explosive devise will take care of the job but there is that rare occasion that an axe or a knife will be what is needed. For this reason there will always be a need for tactical cutlery.

I have no reason to doubt Rafael and Sayoc. I have met them, talked with them and seen some of the training they teach. “Operators” that I have personally worked with introduced me to Sayoc and Rafael. They use the training services offered by Sayoc and I have no reason to question their actions.

Bubbanumber1, you may be an expert on this subject. You may be a member of a “Special Operations” Team. You may be a 12-year-old kid. I don’t know. All I know is that you have posted an opinion that is different than mine. Your post is contradictory to my experience with Special Operations Teams I have personally worked with. But those are your opinions and you have the right to express them.

I have little knowledge of Japanese style Carving Hatchets or the techniques that would be used with them. I would like to know more so please direct me to where I can get further information. I do know that there are many styles of fighting weapons and unlimited techniques for fighting effectively. I believe that none are all right and none are all wrong. I guess the best weapon is the one you have in your hand when you need it.

Thank you for having an interest in this subject and I truly hope you or anyone else never really needs one of these weapons. However I will continue making them just in case you do.

Daniel
Click to expand...


Daniel, Thank You for the truly diplomatic response. You are a good representative of the ABS with your words. I do not have any issue with as you made what you were asked to make and you did a fine job of that. Just from looking I would say your craftsmanship is of the highest quality and knowing the ABS I can only imagine your steel is heat treated and tempered to the best of your ability and that you are highly skilled in that little understood area of blade arts. Im sorry I was unfamiliar with you and your work before I posted on this subject but one cannot know everyone in the knife world. Looking into the matter further I see you are a ABS Member with a ranking of Master Bladesmith and see that you also compete in cutting competitions. Knowing that you are familiar with the cutting competitions and what it takes to cut I challenge you to take the two hawks you made for your customer out behind the wood shed and put them through their paces. I challenge you with the greatest respect and understand this puts you in a bad position with your customer.

Will get back to the Japanese Carving Hatchet and post some pictures for you.





orig.jpg
 
Nuke41 said:
Sun Helmet,

I love tomahawks, and have several, but I’ve always been concerned about historical accuracy, even as its being written. I’ll phrase my concern a little differently than Bubbanumber1. I served almost 22 years in the military; in Desert Storm, Balkans, and Afghanistan, retired just over a year ago and I’m a contractor now that still shows the flag in the AOR. I also spent allot of time with foreign militaries such as the Brits, Russians, Ukrainians, and I spent almost a year in Israel on and off with the IDF. I’ve worked around our and foreign SOF also and in all that time I’ve NEVER seen a tomahawk in the field. I’ve seen guys carry all manner of knives, small hatchets, sharpened old straight handled e-tools (I used to carry one myself, superb tool and weapon), and once a woodsman’s pal, but nary a tomahawk. I see hero shots of troops posted on companies web sites, and there was an article a couple of years ago in Army Times as I recall about new field gear, but for all that I’ve never seen a first person story about their use in the field, or any similar endorsement. I’ve seen young soldiers deploy with all manner of commercial bought kit that they dumped or sent home quickly when they realized it wasn’t going to be of much use, especially given the huge amount of gear weight they have to lug anyway. If your so close to the subject then please do history a favor and get something posted by an actual user.
Click to expand...

Hello Nuke41,

First off, thank you for your service.

As for the hawks - both Mr. Winkler and I were approached independently for our services. So the need was already out there and they sought us out.

As per writing accounts down, perhaps one day they will. I'm a history buff myself, so it would be interesting reading.

regards,
--Rafael--
 
Sun_Helmet said:
Hello Sir,

There is nothing experimental with these hawks. Using classic axe and hawk design and other weapon designs were used as our foundation.

We have had prototypes of these hawks "field tested" for years now, and what is being made public is the most up to date version of that hawk.



Yes, the design is not based on a Japanese cutting hatchet, but more in line with the sweep of the Viking axe and the front spike attributes of a Kalinga headhunter's axe. Different purposes.

We're not cutting in the manner you described, there is no deflection, there is no dueling. The methods are to prevent this range in modern combat, if the weapon is being deflected then the user is in the incorrect scenario, incorrect positioning and range. The enemy has guns, if you are using a hawk that means you're no longer trying to shoot them. If they can deflect your weapon then they can also shoot you.

"Research" and "Development" are hard earned.
That is the miracle of meaningful work.



Extending the front spike further would not increase it's penetrating trauma to flesh and bone. Flesh and bone have a limited capacity that can be surpassed by the length of the front spike as it is now. Again, the methods used differs from your premise. Classic weapons fought against other classic weapons. Different scenarios and thus the evolution of the fighting style.

As Mr. Winkler stated, there's many ways to fight effectively. The very notion that the design contradicts your own pre-conceived views of hawk work only supports STG's combative methodology.



Mr. Winkler and I contemplated about offering these hawks to the public. Partly due to comments such as the above. It only cheapens the intent and attempts to diminish our intentions. These hawks were already being made for the end users, offering them to the public only assist us in staying in the fight.

No malice directed towards you, but I felt that before more words are typed online, I'd share a bit of my perspective. Pardon me if I remove myself from further online debates of what the best killing methods are and what not.

Too busy.

Respectfully,
--Rafael--
Tomahawk Instructor
Sayoc Tactical Group
Click to expand...


Rafael aka Sun Helmet, I find your response typical and furthermore uninformative. Typical in that you try to confuse the reader by a convoluted response and a self prescribed exit based on your self ranked expertise on this subject matter.

Not only are you the Sayoc Tomahawk Instructor you are their Chief Writer and your words are all over the internet, you are also rarely challenged on anything you write but when you are you tend to disappear. It appears to me and others that you guys got the big head back when you were on the movie set "The Hunted" and showed Tommy Lee Jones a couple things and somehow convinced him you were the real deal, then he got all serious and spoke about your group as if it were actually what it is advertised to be. Certainly some military people have passed through your ranks but that's where it ends, as a matter of fact that's where it always ends with all Military Knife Combatives, with a few service members here and there taking a few classes here and there with much hoopla surrounding it, smoke and mirror sales pitches, and snapshot photography photo operations.


Since my reply is about cutting lets get straight to the nutt cutting here. When I used the term deflect http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/deflect it was not intended to confuse readers. Its simple, you swing the weapon with a intended point of contact and a intended pattern of cut, geometry and gravity take over from there. In the case of the upside down machete head you are presenting as a "Special Forces" weapon your design is to put it in military terms, "Ate the F Up" period.

When you swing a hatchet or machete in a death blow the last thing you want is follow through beyond the target as this pendulum effect leaves only one course for the weapon, that being redirected back into your own body. Having the "Upside Down Machete" head on the axe head even when striking a tree will deflect the weapon right back into the user by pendulum but don't take my word for, go do it yourself and see what happens.

No where did I mention dueling, again this is your premise, not mine. While you are correct in saying fancily that a short spike limits penetration what you have failed in disclosing is that trauma to flesh and bone does not equal a quick death and that a longer spike with deeper penetration reaches vital organs and the brain which does tend to end fights quickly, after all that's the name of the game here, killing, not fighting.

The Axe Head that is divided "split" is a serious and amateur design mistake. Just take the thing and hit it on some concrete or a piece of mild steel at half speed and see if it does not shear right off, (please wear safety goggle if you try this). Then explain to me how that's not what it is intended to do but how its combat ready for Special Forces and the battlefield.

Please don't bother with some argument about how chopping down a tree has nothing to do with chopping down a man because this again would only reveal your lack of practical knowledge on this subject matter. In the end it does not pay your group very much if you just took boys to overgrown clearcuts, handed them some hatchets and machetes and told them when they get to the other side they will be experts, but that's how me and my hillbilly friends have learned these things, that and putting dinner on the table by our own hand.
 
Sorry there's no debate here.

Your premise is incorrect, Sayoc is not Mr. Winkler's customer.
We're both working for the same people.
We didn't know it until they introduced us.
We were ASKED to fill a need.

Since you have a ton of energy for forum flexing, why not just make your own hawk and combatives program?

If you fill a need then I'm sure you will get lots of positive responses.

Mr. Winkler and the Sayoc Tactical Group are not your competitors, we're all trying to help the cause.

You seem capable.

Help the cause.

regards,
--Rafael--
 
Sun_Helmet said:
Sorry there's no debate here.

Your premise is incorrect, Sayoc is not Mr. Winkler's customer.
We're both working for the same people.
We didn't know it until they introduced us.
We were ASKED to fill a need.

Since you have a ton of energy for forum flexing, why not just make your own hawk and combatives program?

If you fill a need then I'm sure you will get lots of positive responses.

Mr. Winkler and the Sayoc Tactical Group are not your competitors, we're all trying to help the cause.

You seem capable.

Help the cause.

regards,
--Rafael--
Click to expand...

Nobody is "Forum Flexing" here, May I suggest that if you cannot handle the heat you take two steps back from the forge. You "Rafael" are the one making all the "Tactical" and "Military" claims and if you cannot back that up with practical examples of how your design works making it superior to tried and true classic examples of this weapon you should step off that horse politely before you get bucked off, or maybe your ride was already over before you even got out of the gate.
 
well, i like them.

they are not what i would do, design-wise, but i can see their combat-effectiveness despite all the guys that are worried about hitting oneself with them (i can't help but have the invasive thought: "and you guys carry projectile weapons?!!") i have some pretty odd ideas in the works myself.

if everyone fought the same, there wouldn't be much winning or losing.


i think some of brother bubba's concerns are respectable, but having spent a lot of my personal time amongst America's Elite, and living smack in the middle of them here in Coronado, i have seen some folks get tunnel vision in how things are, even amongst the best and the most-senior.

but i also think brother sun helmet's poke about "making your own tomahawk and combatives" is spot-on advice, and there is nothing obfuscating about that statement, near as i can tell.


this is why dueling should be legal.

it would show who truly backed their product and concepts.

:cool::thumbup:

vec
 
Sun_Helmet said:
Sorry there's no debate here.

Your premise is incorrect, Sayoc is not Mr. Winkler's customer.
We're both working for the same people.
We didn't know it until they introduced us.
We were ASKED to fill a need.

Since you have a ton of energy for forum flexing, why not just make your own hawk and combatives program?

If you fill a need then I'm sure you will get lots of positive responses.

Mr. Winkler and the Sayoc Tactical Group are not your competitors, we're all trying to help the cause.

You seem capable.

Help the cause.

regards,
--Rafael--
Click to expand...

Nice turnaround. Lets see some video of this thing in action. Get some wood (or pork) and give it the treatment from this axe as intended. Show the good and bad.
 
Can someone tell me WHO THE &U$& "bubbanumber1" is? :confused:

I've never heard of him, and although I AM a new poster here, I am not new to the knife/blade world.

Obviously he WRITES as if his opinion matters more than others-did anyone else catch that he was "CHALLENGING" Daniel Winkler??? :jerkit:

I will say that I AGREE with his initial premise that the pitch "designed by Special Forces operators" or some variation is WAY overused in many weapon/tool/gear areas, but this has been an issue for 40 years (since Vietnam, when everyone "worked with Special Forces".)

For the record however, Daniel Winkler's word, ability, craftsmanship, and products are WELL PROVEN and I think this forum is HONORED to have him posting here. And if you feel he needs to make a VIDEO to prove to some Internet commandos that his designs REALLY work, then you place ENTIRELY TOO MUCH IMPORTANCE on yourself. :yawn:

And if you DARE feel the need to come back with "well what's he got to hide" then you are missing the whole point... Look at his prices, look at his backlog, and then try to imagine him dropping everything to run out and make a "Proof" video so Internet Commando #4567 on Internet Forum #985 is "convinced" and can then give his "seal of approval" to his followers... :jerkit:

I for one felt pleasantly surprised when I seen the post from Winkler, as I am familiar with him and his products, and was glad to see him sharing his valuable time and expertise in the Hawk forum. I also felt that the designs were VERY fresh, and probably hold a place in the Hawk world. I don't personally have a niche for Dan's "primitive" weapons, but these Hawks really grabbed my eye!

But with feedback like that, we will succeed in QUICKLY causing Dan to not even bother posting here (we'd still have bubba though, so all is not lost...) :rolleyes:

MR. WINKLER-THANK YOU FOR POSTING HERE, AND I ASK THAT YOU CONTINUE TO TRY TO DO SO AS TIME ALLOWS. THOSE OF US FAMILIAR WITH THE BLADE WORLD APPRECIATE YOU SHARING A BIT OF TIME HERE.

Well...gotta go...I've got the Golf forums pulled up also and there is some cat posting over there under the name "TWoods" telling everyone how to work on their swing. I am going to tell him that he needs to send me a certified score card and a video of his last 18 holes before I will be ready to listen to him... :D
 
Mr. Winkler. I echo what David said....From my humble view, please keep posting and making those unusual hawks. I'm a fan. Go for Brother. Really would like to see some tapes on these being used. BTW are there any plans to make trainers for these.

All My Best
Dwight
 
Wow, so much to say and so little time.

First I would like to thank everyone for taking the time to read and some to post about this subject. Good, bad and questioning, I appreciate everyone for having an interest.

There are a few points I would like to make clear:

**I use the words Tomahawk, axe, hawk, belt axe and hatchet to refer to of this style cutlery. I do it because I like all the terms and I don’t like to sound redundant. I may be grammatically incorrect but I think most know what is being talked about. It’s kind of like Kleenex and facial tissue.

**The axe designs have been tested. I personally can only test with basic field chores, therefore I have made prototypes and sent them to the people that use them to do more involved testing. Based on their feedback and my own testing I adjust the designs until it is as close to just right as possible. None of the designs I have made are perfect, but they will do the job they are designed for.

**The 2 Sayoc designs I am making are not Breaching axes. They are not designed to regularly cut wood or metal. Especially the one with the forward spike. If the situation became necessary for a user to cut wood or metal they would do fairly well but some damage may occur. They are designed so catastrophic failure won’t happen and even with some damage the axe will still function. One tool can’t do every job the best. (Note** I am currently working on a Breaching Axe design for another Team)

**I have no first hand accounts of any of my knives or axes being used in combat. I have never been in Military service and have never been in a combat situation. I have a fair knowledge of knives and Tomahawks but I rely on those that use them to influence the designs I make.

**We all know that right now most battles are fought with guns and things that blow up. I was recently told by one of the guy’s that has been in harms way frequently that “you may only use a knife once in five years but when you need it you are glad it’s there”. He has two of my hatchets and carries one regularly.

**Rafael has been verified to me by men that I trust above all others. That is enough for me. It has been a pleasure and a great learning experience working with Rafael and I hope to do more in the future. As a matter of fact we have a new cutlery design that is different from anything I have seen before in the works now. When it is ready I’ll post a picture and then we will see the s*** hit the fan.

Daniel
 
I am for what works. I am in a couple of other forums and am attracted to Japanese style edged weapons and of course our passion: tomahwks.

It's strange how some people will defend the technology that they Japanese (I am part Japanese) used to fabricate their weapons and their knowledge of metallurgy which was cutting edge at the time. No pun intended.

But the Samurai (the special forces of their day) would have gladly taken one of Howard Clark's L6 Bainite/Martensitic katanas if he simply took a blade from that era of weapon and slapped each one (the L6 and traditionally made) on an anvil as hard as he could.

In my personal opinion (through destructive testing of my own work; and it is heartbreaking) design and robustness have to come before appearances. Kind of like looking at a really beautiful hamon and a more funtional hamon that was created with the use of modern tool steels. One will shattter like glass and the other will just smile at you and ask for more.

Here is an interesting links:

http://www.nihontocraft.com/Nihonto_cold_weather.html

http://www.nihontocraft.com/Suishinshi_Masahide.html

How would you like a tomahawk made out of this stuff:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fM9zhwdIRgY


I am not a Samurai. But I am almost sure if you did the above demonstration in front of some "working warriors" they would pick the sword that didn't break as opposed to the one that had a visually attractive hamon and grain pattern. But maybe not.

At any rate I have designed and handforged some tomahawks that were like no other designs that I have seen and they were cool looking and by the way differentially heat treated with digitally controlled ovens and quenched in computer controlled salt pots.

Testing weapons that you make is tough. You put all this work into making them just to destroy them to validate design and construction. But its kind of like writing a school paper. When you are the one writing it it appears to be the best paper ever written; when you hand it to someone else who is outside of the process it sheds a different light on it.

I have destructively tested my tomahawks. On concrete blocks, steel, granite, wood. I tested for head retention and sound metallurgical integrity.

Full power swings on the above materials are harsh critics of design and robustness.

So as you might have imagined I had to redesign. But, you can have a wicked looking tomahawk that will perform if you are willing to destroy that which you create; it's tough.

A pretty weapon that doesn't work is not a good thing. They're like unloaded guns.

The above isn't directed at anyone but me and what I have discovered about my own work and just an opinion.

Your stuff looks cool DWinkler!



As Always
Respectfully,

Robert
 
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Bubbanumber1 said:
Nobody is "Forum Flexing" here, May I suggest that if you cannot handle the heat you take two steps back from the forge. You "Rafael" are the one making all the "Tactical" and "Military" claims and if you cannot back that up with practical examples of how your design works making it superior to tried and true classic examples of this weapon you should step off that horse politely before you get bucked off, or maybe your ride was already over before you even got out of the gate.
Click to expand...

Sir,

As others have stated and Mr. Winkler has also confirmed, no one is making anything up.

If you do not have the clearance or are unable to access the government contracts that Sayoc has with the military, there's nothing a forum post can say otherwise to assist you in stepping out of your logic bubble.

However, next time I am in a base in front of a group NSW operators, I will let them know they are a figment of my imagination. If that will make you sleep better at night.

As stated numerous times. Mr. Winkler and I were already under contract independently with these groups prior to working together as a team. That's HOW we met.

Having to prove online the research and development that you request is like having the ego to inform an ABS MASTER Bladesmith how a hatchet works even after you admitted you fumbled by not knowing who he was in the first place. To the forum's benefit, Mr. Winkler was kind enough to let that slide.

Believe so many respectable individuals on this forum when they inform you that Mr. Winkler knows how a hachet or wood chopper works. You don't have to tell a person with this high a caliber of work to test out his product for you. It gets tested numerous times before it is announced.

In any case, the end users, can order choppers and hatchets from Mr. Winkler already. They wanted the R&D hawk for a reason, which if you're still following the logic means they are not making the chopping movements you are describing.

If your only other point of reference is an upside down machete, that's not a bad thing. Just think of the ways that design can do damage and maybe it will open up a method of killing that isn't based on splitting wood. Now do more "field tests" of your own and see how that works in the dark with less noise.

Different tool, different scenario, difference of opinion.

For the rest of the forum posters, thanks for allowing me to venture in here, as you can see - there's a reason why I end up "abandoning" these threads. :)

--Rafael--
 
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There are chores that can be done that may require chopping.
Killing has been done in different ways. Fortunately the vast majority of people will never have to kill, even when in combat, at least not up close with a weapon held in hand.
To destroy the neck, or damage the brain does not require tremendous depth of penetration.
Flesh and bone, vs S7 steel? I'd put my money on the steel.
Certainly not everyone can be an expert in all things. But these types of weapons clearly serve a specific purpose that most individuals could never comprehend or accept.
I've been privileged to handle these tomahawks and they are meant for speed, handling and accessibility without hindering the person who has it on their person.

I would just like to add that if it is not already evident, these tomahawks are one piece of steel, and designed for use with the Sayoc group methods and targeting, which probably is NOT how most people would use their tomahawks. In addition, SHOULD bits and pieces of the steel on the hawk break off, it will STILL continue to be able to do its intended purpose of seriously damaging an enemy. Things don't always have to be shiny or sharp to cause death. Power, intention, training and adrenaline will provide needed assist when the time happens that such tools need to be applied.

Simply because something appears very different to what one would expect, does not mean that it is immediately to be disparaged. An alternative would be to try and understand WHY certain things were created, and why the evolution went in a given direction.

I'd focus on the attributes rather than the 'differences.' Hope that helps.
 
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DWinkler said:
Wow, so much to say and so little time.

First I would like to thank everyone for taking the time to read and some to post about this subject. Good, bad and questioning, I appreciate everyone for having an interest.

There are a few points I would like to make clear:

**I use the words Tomahawk, axe, hawk, belt axe and hatchet to refer to of this style cutlery. I do it because I like all the terms and I don’t like to sound redundant. I may be grammatically incorrect but I think most know what is being talked about. It’s kind of like Kleenex and facial tissue.

**The axe designs have been tested. I personally can only test with basic field chores, therefore I have made prototypes and sent them to the people that use them to do more involved testing. Based on their feedback and my own testing I adjust the designs until it is as close to just right as possible. None of the designs I have made are perfect, but they will do the job they are designed for.

**The 2 Sayoc designs I am making are not Breaching axes. They are not designed to regularly cut wood or metal. Especially the one with the forward spike. If the situation became necessary for a user to cut wood or metal they would do fairly well but some damage may occur. They are designed so catastrophic failure won’t happen and even with some damage the axe will still function. One tool can’t do every job the best. (Note** I am currently working on a Breaching Axe design for another Team)

**I have no first hand accounts of any of my knives or axes being used in combat. I have never been in Military service and have never been in a combat situation. I have a fair knowledge of knives and Tomahawks but I rely on those that use them to influence the designs I make.

**We all know that right now most battles are fought with guns and things that blow up. I was recently told by one of the guy’s that has been in harms way frequently that “you may only use a knife once in five years but when you need it you are glad it’s there”. He has two of my hatchets and carries one regularly.

**Rafael has been verified to me by men that I trust above all others. That is enough for me. It has been a pleasure and a great learning experience working with Rafael and I hope to do more in the future. As a matter of fact we have a new cutlery design that is different from anything I have seen before in the works now. When it is ready I’ll post a picture and then we will see the s*** hit the fan.

Daniel
Click to expand...


Daniel, No insult was ever directed towards you and I do not read you taking anything I said as a insult. I just want to set the record straight on that before other readers try and take these arguments in that direction. Your a country boy that makes knives, I do not expect you to waste your time knowing all the politics and misrepresentations that go on with groups like Sayoc and other non military but reped as military experts who train Special Operations. Its a joke inside the military and other communities but its serious when people like Rafael and Sayoc start experimenting with the three card monte concerning Special Weapons while disregarding basic anatomy, geometry, gravity, history, and science in general. You, as a knife maker, do not need gimmicks to sell your steel, unfortunately that is far from true within the knife industry.

Thank You for your honest reply, Never expected anything less.​
 
Sun_Helmet said:
Sir,

As others have stated and Mr. Winkler has also confirmed, no one is making anything up.

If you do not have the clearance or are unable to access the government contracts that Sayoc has with the military, there's nothing a forum post can say otherwise to assist you in stepping out of your logic bubble.

However, next time I am in a base in front of a group NSW operators, I will let them know they are a figment of my imagination. If that will make you sleep better at night.

As stated numerous times. Mr. Winkler and I were already under contract independently with these groups prior to working together as a team. That's HOW we met.

Having to prove online the research and development that you request is like having the ego to inform an ABS MASTER Bladesmith how a hatchet works even after you admitted you fumbled by not knowing who he was in the first place. To the forum's benefit, Mr. Winkler was kind enough to let that slide.

Believe so many respectable individuals on this forum when they inform you that Mr. Winkler's knows how a hachet or wood chopper works. You don't have to tell a person with this high a caliber of work to test out his product for you. It gets tested numerous times before it is announced.

In any case, the end users, can order choppers and hatchets from Mr. Winkler already. They wanted the R&D hawk for a reason, which if you're still following the logic means they are not making the chopping movements you are describing.

If your only other point of reference is an upside down machete, that's not a bad thing. Just think of the ways that design can do damage and maybe it will open up a method of killing that isn't based on splitting wood. Now do more "field tests" of your own and see how that works in the dark with less noise.

Different tool, different scenario, difference of opinion.

For the rest of the forum posters, thanks for allowing me to venture in here, as you can see - there's a reason why I end up "abandoning" these threads. :)

--Rafael--
Click to expand...

Rafael, It figures that you would throw in the towel using the "Secret Squirrel Escape" revealing your "Military Contract" for the "Top Secret Tomahawk Project" along with interjecting my "Lacking Clearance" to be "In The Know" about such matters, How you are the "wiZard fO dEth" to unnamed "Tactical Umpa Lumpas" somewhere in the "Free World" nevermind the fact you cant explain why a better mouse trap is a better mouse trap.
 
I'd just like to take this opportunity to state for the record that working with Mr. Winkler on the R&D Hawk has been a very positive experience.

The craftsmanship and professionalism shows in his work. However, it is behind the scenes during the collaboration process that this became quite evident.

I am truly honored to have worked with Mr. Winkler. As he stated we will have another design coming out that is more knife related. At this time, Sayoc has several designs that are being made by other well known knife-makers, to a man they have all only said good things about Mr. Winkler and his blades.

It's this unspoken unity amongst knife-makers that attracts the loyal customer base who support them thru the years.

I quoted Malcolm Gladwell earlier:

"The miracle of meaningful work."

That it is indeed.
 
Dwight McLemore said:
Mr. Winkler. I echo what David said....From my humble view, please keep posting and making those unusual hawks. I'm a fan. Go for Brother. Really would like to see some tapes on these being used. BTW are there any plans to make trainers for these.

All My Best
Dwight
Click to expand...

Hello Dwight,

We are in the process of getting various types of trainers made.

I will be shooting a DVD in a couple of months. It will be more "civilian" based but will highlight most of the hawk's capabilities and perhaps open up some eyes in terms of the hawk's specialties.

regards,
--Rafael--
 
Bubbanumber1 said:
How you are the "wiZard fO dEth" to unnamed "Tactical Umpa Lumpas" somewhere in the "Free World"
Click to expand...

Sir,

Google and the government actually has one of our recent NSW contracts online for general public viewing:

Naval Special Warfare Contract

I just want to warn you that the contact info on there are for real so please don't hurt yourself more than you already have on this forum.

Play at your own risk.

regards,
--Rafael--
 
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