New Fighting Tomahawk Designs

[vector001]

i live right next to NAB Coronado - there are Tactical Umpa Lumpas everywhere here;

they are just like the Wonka Umpa Lumpas, only they have better rifles, big-ass muscles, and interesting attitudes about smurfs and cold water.

vec

 

[shadowless]

Looks pretty clear that Rafael and the Sayoc group do have credible evidence as to their statements. Bubba I think that you were very offbase in all your comments. Perhaps you can share with us your background and experience so we can understand your knowledge of things military, gravity, anatomy, etc? Obviously your exposure and background in the circles that Rafael travels is a bit more limited than you thought?

 

[just10minreader]

Can someone tell me WHO THE &U$& "bubbanumber1" is?

I've never heard of him, and although I AM a new poster here, I am not new to the knife/blade world.

Obviously he WRITES as if his opinion matters more than others-did anyone else catch that he was "CHALLENGING" Daniel Winkler??? :jerkit:

I will say that I AGREE with his initial premise that the pitch "designed by Special Forces operators" or some variation is WAY overused in many weapon/tool/gear areas, but this has been an issue for 40 years (since Vietnam, when everyone "worked with Special Forces".)

For the record however, Daniel Winkler's word, ability, craftsmanship, and products are WELL PROVEN and I think this forum is HONORED to have him posting here. And if you feel he needs to make a VIDEO to prove to some Internet commandos that his designs REALLY work, then you place ENTIRELY TOO MUCH IMPORTANCE on yourself. :yawn:

And if you DARE feel the need to come back with "well what's he got to hide" then you are missing the whole point... Look at his prices, look at his backlog, and then try to imagine him dropping everything to run out and make a "Proof" video so Internet Commando #4567 on Internet Forum #985 is "convinced" and can then give his "seal of approval" to his followers... :jerkit:

I for one felt pleasantly surprised when I seen the post from Winkler, as I am familiar with him and his products, and was glad to see him sharing his valuable time and expertise in the Hawk forum. I also felt that the designs were VERY fresh, and probably hold a place in the Hawk world. I don't personally have a niche for Dan's "primitive" weapons, but these Hawks really grabbed my eye!

But with feedback like that, we will succeed in QUICKLY causing Dan to not even bother posting here (we'd still have bubba though, so all is not lost...)

MR. WINKLER-THANK YOU FOR POSTING HERE, AND I ASK THAT YOU CONTINUE TO TRY TO DO SO AS TIME ALLOWS. THOSE OF US FAMILIAR WITH THE BLADE WORLD APPRECIATE YOU SHARING A BIT OF TIME HERE.

Well...gotta go...I've got the Golf forums pulled up also and there is some cat posting over there under the name "TWoods" telling everyone how to work on their swing. I am going to tell him that he needs to send me a certified score card and a video of his last 18 holes before I will be ready to listen to him...

Few pictures and reputation work great for print media.
But on the interweb folks want video.
Granted these aren't for sale, but if you have time to write a few hundred words ... especially using the special vocabulary, you have time for video, its more persuasive.

Me, I just want to see it in action

 

[Bubbanumber1]

Sir,

Google and the government actually has one of our recent NSW contracts online for general public viewing:

Naval Special Warfare Contract

I just want to warn you that the contact info on there are for real so please don't hurt yourself more than you already have on this forum.

Play at your own risk.

regards,
--Rafael--

That's all you have? That is not even a contract but a letter of intention if anyone bothered to read any of it. I'm sure you have taught a few classes as have many folks, some good, and some complete bullshit artists. Every person who ever pulled over and took a piss at Pendleton has some kind of document and claims to be a "Sniper" or "Sniper Instructor" or just starts a company and branches out from there. Ever heard of Gary and Surgical Shooting? The document your throwing up here is just the type of thing that I find irritating about you and Sayoc, you trip over a mouse and by the time the story is repeated a few times you stopped a charging elephant with a titanium toothpick.

 

[shadowless]

That's all you have? That is not even a contract but a letter of intention if anyone bothered to read any of it. I'm sure you have taught a few classes as have many folks, some good, and some complete bullshit artists. Every person who ever pulled over and took a piss at Pendleton has some kind of document and claims to be a "Sniper" or "Sniper Instructor" or just starts a company and branches out from there. Ever heard of Gary and Surgical Shooting? The document your throwing up here is just the type of thing that I find irritating about you and Sayoc, you trip over a mouse and by the time the story is repeated a few times you stopped a charging elephant with a titanium toothpick.

Actually, it says: Due to the fact that this is a second iteration to a previous course of Overseas Force Protection Training and Cultural Indoctrination Education conducted by Sayoc International Group (SIG).

That means the course was presented prior to that particular contract the link leads to.

Your comments are lame. Why not come out of your screenname alias you hide behind, so all of us on bladeforums should know why we should offer any of your comments any credence?

Face it, your comments are all pretty lame on this thread now. That's clear.

The emotional tone of your comments would lead one to think all you're bringing to this thread is anger, frustration and jealousy and no clear agenda for why you would criticize the way you do. Another keyboard warrior...hiding behind an alias.

 

[jjtjr]

shadowless said to Bubbanumber1:

Looks pretty clear that Rafael and the Sayoc group do have credible evidence as to their statements. Bubba I think that you were very offbase in all your comments. Perhaps you can share with us your background and experience so we can understand your knowledge of things military, gravity, anatomy, etc? Obviously your exposure and background in the circles that Rafael travels is a bit more limited than you thought?

I agree with this statement, Bubbanumber1 put up or shut up!

 

[David From NC]

I have an interesting outlook on this topic, that appears vastly different from my post yesterday, although I still stand behind what I posted.

This post / thread has become a disappointment for me, or at least (to be more specific) it's become a black eye on an otherwise low pressure, calm, clean, LOW STRESS Internet forum. (Funny...being a warrior...in that coming home after work and looking at tools on the Internet used to manually open up someone's body cavities is "LOW STRESS"... )

I used to be a moderator on one forum for law enforcement, and was heavily involved in 2 or 3 more, and visited at LEAST half a dozen more. I got SO SICK of them, I quit my position and almost gave up Internet forums.

Only a BIG LUST / JONESING for new knives brought me here, and I really enjoy it here.

As far as this specific topic, I think minds are made up and we've all "got it off our chests" (at least what we wanted to say initially.)

So... I HUMBLY suggest that we "self-police" ourselves and let this go away, so as not to darken the door for us primarily, but also anyone who might stop by a visit and it appear that we always go on like this.

Thoughts?

WHAT BETTER PLACE THAN THE "AXE, TOMAHAWK, AND HATCHET FORUM" TO "BURY THE HATCHET"????
:thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup:

 

[Dusty One]

DWinkler your work is fantistic and Thanks for bringing it to this Forum and showing it.
I look forward to seeing and hearing more from you !!!

 

[crossada]

it seems Bubba has some hard feelings towards Sayoc which is clogging up a other wise good thread.

as far as the design goes i think it looks interesting. knowing what little i do about Sayoc i know they are cqc specialists and this hawk looks like it is designed for something different than a normal fighting hawk would be. i for one will be eagerly awaiting what Raphael puts out on the dvd showing whats what. until then everyone's expert opinion on the matter is just that, an opinion.

all the best to Daniel Winkler, and the Sayoc group.

 

[vector001]

....

Thoughts?

....

i don't think it's that bad, brother. - i understand where you are coming from and applaud your grace. - i especially like your thought about self-policing and that is a much better alternative to being moderated to death, which always leads to a forum's end, or at best, causes it to be mediocre.

one anonymous guy out of all of us doesn't like the tools for reasons he can't seem to itemize beyond what rhetoric answers. - and the fact is, he might have a legitimate reason why he can't disclose such things. - which would be funny as Hell given his positions on such predicaments - har! - God does have a sense of humor, i reckon - the irony would be delicious to those with a taste for such comedic elements.

- if you think about it in market and/or community terms - torquing only one nut out of many - that's a pretty good average.

sometimes the greatest critics become the strongest defenders down the line, too;

i think this will all pan out.

personally, i am just stoked to have a lot of the Greats around lately.


professionals, anonymous or not, are known by the constructive quality of their criticism.

the Best don't flinch.

Bravo Zulu, brothers winkler and 'helmet.

brother bubba, i think you have made some good points, and they have been answered enough to satisfy - for now.

step back and have a virtual cup of coffee with me and work up a military criticsm in military style, and you will be lent credence, brother.

i am sure it is in you.


i am going through some similar plights as the brothers at Sayoc state they are going through - every week or so, i sit in front of a SEAL and we have to talk around all the things that we cannot discuss with each other.

I am just now hearing stories from the 1960's that are being declassified, pertaining to Alpha Strikes - stuff i never would've guessed.

there's just no way you can know everything that is going on around you, about what folks are doing and how they are equipped - i feel for brother nuke41's need for personal accounts - maybe he will get one in a Vet Hospital 40 years from now. He's talking like a member of the media, as far as i can tell - and it has never worked that way.

(that's not meant as a criticism BTW, to brother nuke41 - we all thirst for knowledge - some want to drink of it, and others want to kill it to prove their own points. it makes me laugh.)

Thank God for beer at the end of the week, is all i can say.

Semper Fi,

vec

 

[Nuke41]

I think Bubbanumber1 brings up a valid point in that everyone who produces a piece of gear or can hold a training session on anything often claims to a deep part of the SOF world, in some cases its true, I suspect in allot its good advertising. I find it troubling that people reportedly that close to the topic can’t produce first hand testimony that “tactical” tomahawks are indeed being used in the field. Just because something is cool and has deadly use potential doesnt mean it has application in modern warfare. I love my .58 caliber musket and hog hunt with it all the time, and its much more deadly than a 5.56mm round, but in the field I'd still want an M-4.

At any rate, I AKO emailed a still active duty O-5 Army SOF friend of mine from back when we were both in Stuttgart on the topic, to see what he said. He’s some of what he said:

“Tomahawk training, are you sh**ting me! We can’t keep our team members HALO and underwater warfare qualified because of ops tempo and lack of training asset support, who the h**l would have time for something like that? I don’t know who in the SOF community is doing this, but I should have joined them instead of SF so I wouldn’t be deployed 365 days out of the year.

I’ve no doubt a tomahawk is a fine deadly weapon, the Indians killed the h**l out of the cav bubbas back in the day, but I can’t think of a realistic engagement to use such a thing in today. Perhaps in sentry removal in a direct action op, but that’s why they give us .45s with silencers. You used to do range time with us, you know the drill, M-4s on fast semi-auto, dropped to sling and go to .45 up close in only if you must, in total f***ing emergency hand to hand as delay until you yank knife, end of story. I can only envision trying to employ a tomahawk in the 1 second I have after my guns fail for some reason, it would be end of story. As far as planned use, I could just see doing a final op brief to leadership and I say “and this is where I kill the tango with a tomahawk”, they’d have me transferred to quartermaster or some other REMF branch in 10 minutes and I’d be counting wing nuts in Kansas the next day.”

Anyone wants to post a first hand account as a counter, feel free.

 

[thundermoon]

With no disrespect intended toward anyone, for what has turned into a pissing match and is way off the topic of the amazing craftmanship of Mr. Winkler.......I too would like for Bubbanumber1 to state your experience or expertise? Not to do so is like pointing the finger at yourself since you are acusing others of the lack of credentials. When I say that I am by no means being disrespectful, it just seems fair that if you question others you should be willing to qualify yourself. It could help validate your claims, or not? I have no dog in this fight other than I happen to know that Mr. Winkler is a heck of a fine gentleman and craftsman, and I know you are not insulting his work, but his post is what drew my attention to this whole thread. My two cents for what it's worth.

 

[crossada]

i don't think it's that bad, brother. - i understand where you are coming from and applaud your grace. - i especially like your thought about self-policing and that is a much better alternative to being moderated to death, which always leads to a forum's end, or at best, causes it to be mediocre.

another way to kill a good forum is to fall into the rock star treatment. this is where you will have 5 pages of "you're cool and you rule" type posts after a popular member posts something.

questions should be welcomed to keep a conversation lively but we don't need badgering for the sake of badgering. Cliff Stamp made a career on BF doing this to makers eventually making them not want to post. i like the thought of a wide variety of opinions on a subject but rudeness doesn't have to be a part of the equation.

 

[Sun_Helmet]

Some very legitimate concerns Nuke41. Thanks for placing it in a very thoughtful manner.

I love my .58 caliber musket and hog hunt with it all the time, and its much more deadly than a 5.56mm round, but in the field I'd still want an M-4.

That's a valid point and I agree with you. I don't think anyone would dump their firearms to use their hawk.

Just because something is cool and has deadly use potential doesnt mean it has application in modern warfare.

However, please follow me for a second --your M-4 is valuable, your life depends on it.

Now you find yourself in a situation where you have little time to look for a prop to turn a "body" over. The objects you can trust are the things you brought. Will you use your knife, your M-4 or a hawk designed to hook around body parts?

You can even secure the hawk to cord and get enough distance to put some barrier between you and the body in case it goes boom.

That's a situation where a classic hawk may not be the proper tool. A knife may not be the proper tool.

This is just a rough, admittedly vague scenario, it isn't even a scenario we teach but I hope it frees up some out of the box ideas. Follow that path and you'll start to see that the RnD hawk goes beyond - rush and kill tactics. I apologize in advance that I'm not so forthcoming.

On deploying the hawk. We teach ways to deploy the hawk and even ways to buy the time to get the halfbeat to deploy the weapon. We teach ways to use the hawk still in it's sheath if it happens to be at your side.

If you can draw a knife quickly, your hawk should be designed so that you can draw it well - just like a knife but with more extension and angles to hurt the BG. There's a perfect reason, the RnD hawk has a gun grip style handle- so one can draw it with the same quick twitch muscle memory they already invested in their shooting draws.

You pop the hawk lose and grip it the same way as a gun - you have a direct center line thrust to the BG with the front spike - that's already in the shooter's muscle memory. Now that gives you the halfbeat to rip cut and strike with the butt end, it allows you to choke, hook the clavicle, etc.

A regular hawk handle with the normal edge does not have that option. If you swing a traditional axe at the femoral in an semi-uppercut motion, you will not dig the hook like the RnD hawk is specifically designed to do.
However weapons from throughout history have these attributes, check out the heads of halberds, pikes and other edged weapons. They were all very effective, but they were not wood choppers (which seems to be the default for a good hawk)

The back spike is short angled so there's an option to pluck the back of knee tendons to offset balance, in the same beat- spike the back of the skull. SHORT tight movements, movements you don't use on a piece of wood. Movements that if the handle is curved for it - will be even tighter.

At STG we put deploying the edged weapon quickly as a primary concern. If you can't deploy it under .4 seconds (using a shot timer) then more training is required just in that arena alone.

“Tomahawk training, are you sh**ting me! We can’t keep our team members HALO and underwater warfare qualified because of ops tempo and lack of training asset support, who the h**l would have time for something like that? I don’t know who in the SOF community is doing this, but I should have joined them instead of SF so I wouldn’t be deployed 365 days out of the year.

It appears your friend is justified in his thinking, since he doesn't carry a hawk, there is no urgency to learn how to use one.

However, how much training did he get in using his knife? If none, that's a legitimate gap, especially as you stated you actually have scenarios in your mind that a knife is handy, correct?

Same with the hawk. The operators carried hawks already - we were teaching them knifework, and the need for hawk training was there. At that point it evolves once I get input on what their needs are. This is why I do not want to take full responsibility for the whole design, half of the task was listening to them.

I am flattered that many here find it so sleek - that wasn't even my intention. I believe it is Mr. Winkler's fine work that makes something designed to do ugly tasks - a pleasure to the eye.

Pardon the length of this post. I wanted to shed some light - without actually going into actual techniques that we teach. These are merely rough ideas that perhaps may explain some of the features on the hawk.

regards,
--Rafael--

 

[vector001]

another way to kill a good forum is to fall into the rock star treatment. this is where you will have 5 pages of "you're cool and you rule" type posts after a popular member posts something.

questions should be welcomed to keep a conversation lively but we don't need badgering for the sake of badgering. Cliff Stamp made a career on BF doing this to makers eventually making them not want to post. i like the thought of a wide variety of opinions on a subject but rudeness doesn't have to be a part of the equation.

right.

well stated.

vec

 

[Mushroom73]

Wow. A lot of mallninja arguments on this thread.

I work in Gov't contracts for the Navy and I can tell you that what is published for public view is what is required to be filed under federal guidelines outlining a brief summary of intent, but not details, especially in the areas of training and equipment. If you have questions concerning the development of anything for the US Navy you need to contact COMOPTEVFOR in Norfolk Va, or COMSPECWARDEVGRU.

Both of which will tell you to pack sand and probably trace your info back to you.

I don't see why either Rafeal or Mr. Winkler need to explain ANYTHING to the mall ninja masses who cry foul because they don't understand what confidentiality is or what is at risk if they violate the terms of a gov't contract with concerns to what we call INFOSEC.

If they can't tell you, they can't tell you.

 

[Irezumi]

Wicked tomahawks, some of the best I have seen. Not sure why this bloke bubba is picking a fight but I would love to own one of them hawks!

 

[Bubbanumber1]

With no disrespect intended toward anyone, for what has turned into a pissing match and is way off the topic of the amazing craftmanship of Mr. Winkler.......I too would like for Bubbanumber1 to state your experience or expertise? Not to do so is like pointing the finger at yourself since you are acusing others of the lack of credentials. When I say that I am by no means being disrespectful, it just seems fair that if you question others you should be willing to qualify yourself. It could help validate your claims, or not? I have no dog in this fight other than I happen to know that Mr. Winkler is a heck of a fine gentleman and craftsman, and I know you are not insulting his work, but his post is what drew my attention to this whole thread. My two cents for what it's worth.

Am I trying to sell you "Ninja Gear" but not providing pictures of myself in my "Ninja Costume?"

My comments were practical concerning the weapons presented. I have gone out of my way to clarify that I am not directing any negativity towards the maker. What I do question is Sayoc, Rafael, and their salesmanship or should I say circus act. I'm not the first to point out that they are fantasy warriors who try to use smoke and mirrors and claim secret knowledge about edged weapons. Myself and friends consider them to be complete bullshit artists but interested parties need to do their own research on that. In the end they are claiming to have redesigned a basic and proven weapon and made it more deadly, I'm calling bullshit on that as a fact.



I have dealt with many people like this, a "Do you know who my dad is?" mentality. As far as I know none of the original Sayocs can claim any "Military" claims muchless provide examples of themselves killing men with knives. As a matter of fact from what I know they were all city kids with no practical skills with the weapons they claim to be experts with. Find me a sugar cane cutter with all his fingers a and toes and I will show you a knife expert but they will not have a fancy story to sell because the Field Worker was never part of a secret death society or the creator of comic books like the Sayocs.

Tuhon's lineage dates back to the Katipunan Secret Society which was largely involved in the revolution against Spain. His Great, Great Grandfather was a famous general named General Licerio Topacio y Corcuera. (Tuhon's Great Grandfather was also a General) This military tradition lends greatly to the Sayoc Fighting Systems tactical nature and the fact that Sayoc practitioners are constantly evolving to meet new challenges. This is also why the top guys in the Sayoc system are so highly sought after by the "elite" military and law enforcement groups.

 

[shadowless]

Myself and friends consider them to be complete bullshit artists but interested parties need to do their own research on that. In the end they are claiming to have redesigned a basic and proven weapon and made it more deadly, I'm calling bullshit on that as a fact.


Frankly I don't recall seeing anywhere that any Sayoc member stated that they made a weapon any more deadly.

You and your friends continue to remain nameless and anonymous. The emotional content of your posts continue to be that of a whiney, jealous individual scratching and clawing at whatever you can lash out at, but ultimately it continues to invalidate any of your comments as being particularly worthwhile or constructive in any way.

You may call bullshit on them, you are certainly entitled to an opinion. But clearly when that opinion is based NOT on any VALID knowledge, or personal experience with the Sayoc methodologies, and you continue to NOT reveal the sources of your opinions, thoughts, or statements you reveal yourself as someone worthy of ... a yawn.

I hope you can find some peace. Really, if you had any type of worthwhile comments, you've continued to invalidate yourself with your unwarranted negativity and hostility that has done little on a positive note.

 

[Bubbanumber1]

Myself and friends consider them to be complete bullshit artists but interested parties need to do their own research on that. In the end they are claiming to have redesigned a basic and proven weapon and made it more deadly, I'm calling bullshit on that as a fact.


Frankly I don't recall seeing anywhere that any Sayoc member stated that they made a weapon any more deadly.

You and your friends continue to remain nameless and anonymous. The emotional content of your posts continue to be that of a whiney, jealous individual scratching and clawing at whatever you can lash out at, but ultimately it continues to invalidate any of your comments as being particularly worthwhile or constructive in any way.

You may call bullshit on them, you are certainly entitled to an opinion. But clearly when that opinion is based NOT on any VALID knowledge, or personal experience with the Sayoc methodologies, and you continue to NOT reveal the sources of your opinions, thoughts, or statements you reveal yourself as someone worthy of ... a yawn.

I hope you can find some peace. Really, if you had any type of worthwhile comments, you've continued to invalidate yourself with your unwarranted negativity and hostility that has done little on a positive note.

Take it however you like, sometimes truth and demystification is not polite.