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BarryHalls

Joined
Feb 2, 2012
Messages
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Hi all,

I'm new. It's great to find this place!

I've done a fair bit of metal work before, and built a forge (that never worked right) and made a lot of tools and instruments out of scrap steel. I'm here now to learn more about knife making. I'm really passionate about it. I've already learned a fair deal, but need to know a lot more about the finer points. I know a bit about heat treating and tempering, etc, and a lot about using steel. I'm very interested in stainless knife steels. D2 really turns me on, but is too expensive for most of the people interested in my designs. I'm familiar with several others, but not in love with any.

I'm big into backpacking and canoeing and have always brought a hatchet, a machete, and a couple pocket knives. SO, the primary purpose is to reduce the weight and carry ONE blade that will do the jobs of all the others, pretty well. My primary design is an all purpose bush knife, with a weighted end, like a kukri, but straight like a bolo. I want it to be "If you can only bring 'one blade" this is the blade. The other side of the coin is for this to be a "one blade" for wilderness survival/lost/break down/crash scenario, so it needs to hold an edge very very very well too (hard chrome, pattern welding, and alternating layers get me excited!).

I've got that part down, I just need to get my prototypes out without spending an arm and a leg. I've got a local machinist on the line to help me with heat treating and such until I get a proper forge going and a few more power tools (tax returns).

So, my first question is, what's a reasonably priced stainless steel that I can get to hold an edge really really well, up around the 55+RC range, to use for my prototypes/lowest price models?

Thanks in advance for any advice!
 
Welcome!

I can't help you a whole bunch on the steels, but D2 and good ol' 440C are my favorites. Many stainless knife steels can get pretty darn expensive.

If you fill out your profile there may be someone on here that lives close by that could help you out.


-Xander
 
440C jumps out at me. I know my favorite knife set is made of that stuff. It hardens nicely, and is very stainless. I have my eye on it for my prototypes and low end line.

D2 isn't expensive? Do you know someone I don't? The cheapest I've found for ONE blank big enough to ONE of my knives is $90. Forget readily available. I have to drive an hour to get it.
 
BarryHalls said:
440C jumps out at me. I know my favorite knife set is made of that stuff. It hardens nicely, and is very stainless. I have my eye on it for my prototypes and low end line.

D2 isn't expensive? Do you know someone I don't? The cheapest I've found for ONE blank big enough to ONE of my knives is $90. Forget readily available. I have to drive an hour to get it.
Click to expand...

How big is ONE of your knives?
 
a lot depends on where you are.

Maybe I missed it, but it helps if you can fill out your profile with location and some things like that.
The Country, State, major city will help us point you to suppliers.


Pricing.
that depends mostly on size.

I don't see anything about that inyour post either.



In general trems, we like this supplier.
best steel, prices and service.

http://njsteelbaron.com/

The 1084 is about the least expensive material you can find.

No it's not stainless, but it beats spending $100 on steel for prototyping that you may very well foul up and trash.
 
Yeah, I'm thinking about NOT doing stainless for my prototypes, BUT I do need to test my design on the steels I like. . . We'll see how much of a difference it makes on cost.
 
Widest dimensions 4"x14"x.2"

9" blade with 4" pot belly, and 5" overall grip. It's a big knife. The intention is that it be good for light chopping (like a small hatchet) but not so huge as to be unwieldy for fighting or carving. It's only 2" longer than a Kabar after all.
 
cbr900son said:
http://njsteelbaron.com/ hard to beat price selection and service
Click to expand...

WOW, if that's the best prices. . . Yeesh. . . my customers are going to be less happy than I am! I love their price on D2 though. I could get a piece big enough for 4 blades for $208+shipping. . . I'm still looking at AROUND $100 a blade BEFORE my labor or heat treating. . . oi. . . I'm guessing there's no such thing as a ban-saw blade that will cut D2 is there? So that's 4 blades per bar stock ONLY if I pay someone to laser cut them.

SO, what's a bargain blade steel? Price/edge&durability
 
Last edited:
I cut d2 with a bandsaw every time I use d2 so no problem there. I'm really interested to see your design with the 4" belly. That's a lot of steel!
 
12345678910 said:
a lot depends on where you are.

It helps if you can fill out your profile with location and some things like that.
The Country, State, major city will help us point you to suppliers.

In general terms, we like this supplier.
best steel, prices and service.

http://njsteelbaron.com/

The 1084 is about the least expensive material you can find.
Click to expand...

BarryHalls said:
WOW, if that's the best prices. . . Yeesh. . . my customers are going to be less happy than I am! I love their price on D2 though. I could get a piece big enough for 4 blades for $208+shipping. . . I'm still looking at AROUND $100 a blade BEFORE my labor or heat treating. . . oi. . . I'm guessing there's no such thing as a ban-saw blade that will cut D2 is there? So that's 4 blades per bar stock ONLY if I pay someone to laser cut them.

SO, what's a bargain blade steel? Price/edge&durability
Click to expand...

If the D2, or any blade steel is annealed, no trouble doing a hacksaw or bandsaw cut.


I see you added profile info.
"NW AL" location,
I think that any steel you have shipped to the North West territories, or North West Alberta will have high shipping costs.
:) - ok I'm screwing with you here, maybe you are from the United States, but seriously there are worldwide members here, if you spell it out for us, we all understand much better.


The 1084 is about the least expensive material you can find.

You mention, prototypes and customers, yet don't know if you could bandsaw cut D2?
If this is your first blade, I suggest that you keep it small and do a few before you make that holy grail monster chopper.

If you have a machinist friend that is helping you, why not see if they have any drop cut offs in D2 that would suit you, or see if his suppliers would have?

1084 is still say cheaper and appeals to the bushcraft crowd anyway, at least until you have it perfected.
 
Yeah, he says he has lots of drops that would work great for blades. I wasn't really thinking about those. I should have been though. Putting the cart before the horse I suppose. If he has enough steels that will work, I can use those exclusively for some time unless someone wants to spend the extra on something specific.

This isn't my first knife, but my first time playing with steel stock for knives, and I'm trying totally different design elements to any knife I have ever used (excluding my 1 pre-prototype proof of concept blade). I've always used broken tools, so a rough blade shape is usually there, and I just grind some off.

I just recently got a ban saw and didn't know if it would cut anything as heavy as .20 D2. I've always cut things with grinders and torches. I'm self taught everything. I've learned it all the hard way. That's why I come here. Do I need any certain blade or just any "metal cutting" blade?

I've been bouncing this design around a gun forum for about 2 years and have guys waiting in line for me to produce one. I finally got my finances straight enough to put out a little bit to do some metal working. I used to work at place that allowed me to use their tools. With a career change, I'm buying my own a little at a time. I'm sure I don't have to tell you guys about the cost of getting this going.

I really appreciate all of the input so far! Thanks guys!
 
Last edited:
Alright, so my usual source for metal info tells me nothing about 1084. Anyone have a link to info? I assume I'd have to take good care of it to keep it from rusting? That's perfectly fine for prototypes, but as a bush knife, I personally want something more water/blood resistant. 440c my best option?
 
BarryHalls said:
I just recently got a ban saw and didn't know if it would cut anything as heavy as .20 D2.
I've always cut things with grinders and torches. I'm self taught everything.
I've learned it all the hard way. That's why I come here.
Do I need any certain blade or just any "metal cutting" blade?

I've been bouncing this design around a gun forum for about 2 years and have guys waiting in line for me to produce one. I finally got my finances straight enough to put out a little bit to do some metal working. I used to work at place that allowed me to use their tools. With a career change, I'm buying my own a little at a time. I'm sure I don't have to tell you guys about the cost of getting this going.

I really appreciate all of the input so far! Thanks guys!
Click to expand...


A metal cutting band saw will cut steel.
Whether or not the one you have will do it or not is a whole other question.
Wood cutting and metal cutting saws are very different.


Show us a link, or photo, which one do you have?
The portabands from harbour freight are about the cheapest thing that work.

A bi-metal blade works well, the carbon steel blades wear out pretty quickly

You want to keep 3 or more teeth in the work, or it strips the teeth right off the blade.
so for your 1/4 stock, 3x4=12 12 tpi or finer is kind of what you will be looking for, 18tpi is common.







You know, I'm surprised I held out for so long before I hit you with this.


I've put this together to answer most of a new maker’s questions on how to make a knife. I'm sure it will help you too. How to Instructions for making a Knife.

The Count's Standard Reply to New Knifemakers V22

The answer to a 13 year old student is different than to a 40 year old engineer.
We may recommend a local supplier, you may have a helpful neighbour, or local Hammerin; but that depends on where you are. We have members worldwide.
Please fill out your profile with your location (Country, State, City), age, education, employment, hobbies.

Look at the threads stickied at the top; many are expired, but not all.

The basic process in the simplest terms
Absolute Cheapskate Way to Start Making Knives-Printable PDF-Right Click and Save
Absolute Cheapskate Way to Start Making Knives-Website


Web Tutorials
Detailed instructions by Stacy E. Apelt

The Things I Advise New Knife Makers Against-Printable PDF

Handle Tutorial - Nick Wheeler-PDF

http://www.engnath.com/manframe.htm

Books
A list of books and videos

BladeForums - E-books or Google books


I like:
David Boye-Step by Step Knifemaking
Tim McCreight-Custom Knifemaking: 10 Projects from a Master Craftsman
These are clear, well organized, widely available and inexpensive too.

Knife Design:

Think thin. A paring knife slices, an axe doesn't.
Forget swords, Saw-tooth spines, guthooks, crazy grinds and folders for your first knife.

Start with a drawing.
Show it to us, we love to see and comment on photos.
Then make a cardboard cutout template & draw in handles, pins and such
Then make it in wood, paint sticks are free & close to the right size.
Play with that and see if it “feels right”. If it feels right it usually “looks right“

How to post a photo on BF
http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php/742638-TUTORIAL-Displaying-your-photographs-on-BladeForums

See the Google books thread for Lloyd Harding drawings, the Loveless book & Bob Engnath Patterns. Google books thread

Bob Engnath Patterns compiled into a PDF


Forging Books:
Lorelei Sims-The Backyard Blacksmith
An excellent modern book with colour photos for forging in general - no knifemaking.

Jim Hrisoulas- has 3 books on forging knives. Check for the cheaper paperback editions.
The Complete Bladesmith: Forging Your Way to Perfection
The Pattern-Welded Blade: Artistry in Iron
The Master Bladesmith: Advanced Studies in Steel

Machine Shop Basics -Books:
Elementary Machine Shop Practice-Printable PDF

The Complete Practical Machinist-Printable -1885-PDF
Right Click and save link as.
It’s being reprinted now; you can get it for $20 ish

The $50 knife Shop
It confused me for a long time.
Forging is NOT necessary; you can just file and grind to create a knife (stock removal)

Forget the Goop Quench.
Use commercial quench oil & match oil speed to the steel type; even grocery store canola oil works much better for some steels.

Junkyard steels require skill and experience to identify the steel and heat treat it properly.
Forget about Lawnmower blades and start with a new known steel type.
Good heat treating needs accurate temperature control and full quench.
You can buy proper steel like 1084FG from Aldo very cheaply.

I like cable damascus, but that advanced project has no place in a beginner’s book.

The grinders are the best thing about this book, but there is a huge amount of info for 2x72” belt grinders on the web, including free plans.


Videos

Heat Treating Basics Video-downloadable
Right click and save this. Watch it once a day for 10 days.

Safety-video
Right click and save this. Watch it once a day for 10 days.

Many specific how to knifemaking videos are available, some are better than others.

The best overall Knifemaking video I have seen is
“Steve Johnson-Making a Sub-Hilt Fighter”

Basic Bladesmithing
"Ed Caffrey - Basic Bladesmithing-Full DVD-ISO"

The best video on leather sheath making for beginners that I have seen is
“Custom Knife Sheaths -Chuck Burrows - Wild Rose”
-(Paul Long has 2 videos, his sheath work & videos are fantastic, but more advanced-with inlays, machine stitchers..)

Green Pete's Free Video
Making a Mora bushcraft knife, stock removal, hand tools, neo tribal / unplugged heat treat.
Use a piece of known steel, not a file. I just post this as an example of doing it by hand with few tools.
"Green Pete" posted it free using torrent files.
Be sure to look at the other titles too-The account index has disappeared, but search for LOTS of info. Use the keywords “LurkerLurker torrent” “knifemakerC torrent” and others
Greenpete Knifemaking Basics-on TPB

How to download that video
http://www.utorrent.com/help/guides/beginners-guide

You can see a list of videos and reviews at this rental company; some are worth buying, some renting…
http://smartflix.com/store/category/9/Knifemaking

Draw Filing Demonstration
YouTube video -Draw Filing-for a flat finish

Steel
The “welding steel” at Home Depot / Lowes… is useless for knives.
Forget about lawnmower blades ,files and other unknown junkyard steels.
For all the work involved, it is very cheap to buy and use a known good steel.

If you send out for heat treating, you can use
Oil quenched O1, 1095, 1084
Or air quenched A2, CM154, ATS34, CPM154, 440C, plus many others.

For heat treating yourself with minimal equipment, find some Eutectoid steel.
1084FG sold by Aldo Bruno is formulated for Knifemaking, Cheapest & made for DIY heat-treat.
http://njsteelbaron.com/
Phone # 862-203-8160

1095 is a good carbon steel, but a bad choice for a beginner with limited equipment.
1095 is "Hypereutectioid" and needs very precise temperature control and proper fast quench oil Like Parks 50 or Houghton K Kevin Cashen - 1095 - hypereutectoid steel

If you are sending one or 2 knives out for heat treatment, use 154-CM or CPM-154 and ship it out to TKS -Texas Knifemaker Supply
It's the cheapest way to do 1 or 2 because of HT minimum charges.


You can find a list of suppliers here

Heat Treating
http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showpost.php?p=9143684&postcount=7

You can send blades out for heat treating at $10 or $15 per blade for perfect results, and avoid buying the equipment.

Air Hardening Stainless Steel Only
Buck Pau Bos -Be sure to check the Shipping and Price tabs.
http://www.buckknives.com/index.cfm?event=bio.paulBos#
http://www.texasknife.com/vcom/privacy.php#services

Oil Hardening Carbon Steels and Air Hardening Stainless Steel
http://www.petersheattreat.com/cutlery.html
http://www.knifemaker.ca/ (Canadian)


Quenchants for Oil hardening steel
Forget the Goop Quench.
Forget used motor oil, it's toxic and doesn't work that well.

Use commercial quench oil & match oil speed to the steel type;

Even grocery store canola oil works well enough for your first knife-if you use the right steel.

Brine and water are almost free, and technically correct for W1 and "water hardening" steels but a fast oil like Parks 50 and Houghton Houghto Quench K are less likely to give you broken blades.
If you use water or brine, expect to have a cracked or broken blade.
Search the work "tink" for more info


Glue – Epoxy

Use a Fresh package of slow setting, high strength epoxy to attach blades to handles and well as seal out moisture.
Surface Prep is vital, drill tang holes/ grind a hollow, roughen the surfaces with abrasive, blasting is best.
Ensure the surface is clean & no oil including fingerprints. Soap, Acetone & Alcohol, Blasting.
Clamp with moderate pressure= avoid a “glue starved joint” when all the adhesive is squeezed out.
These are well proven.
Brownell's Acraglas
West Systems G Flex
JB Weld


Grinder / Tools

In my opinion, variable speed and a small wheel attachment are essential on a good grinder.
You can almost always improve tracking with more belt tension. It needs to be way tighter than you first think.

Hand Tools
You can do it all by hand with files and abrasive cloth like the Green Pete video.
Files can be made from unhardenable steel, or steel similar to 1095 that needs a difficult HT
Just use 1084 instead of a file.

Photo of a nice bevel filing jig

Entry Level Grinders
Many makers start with the Sears Craftsman 2x42 belt grinder

Low Speed Modification Craftsman 2x42 belt grinder


Commercial Production 2 x 72” Belt Grinder Reviews
http://www.prometheanknives.com/shop-techniques-3/grinders
http://www.cnccookbook.com/CCKnifeMakingGrinders.htm

Mapp arm – Grinder Toolrest


DIY 2 x 72” Belt Grinders

KMG Clone Free Plans
http://www.dfoggknives.com/PDF/GrinderPlans.pdf

NWG No Weld Grinder
http://www.usaknifemaker.com/plans-for-the-no-weld-grinder-sander-nearly-50-pages-p-723.html

EERF Grinder (EERF =“Free” backwards)
http://wilmontgrinders.com/EERFGrinder.aspx
http://blindhogg.com/blueprints.html

Buy the kit
http://polarbearforge.com/grinder_kit.html

What Belts to buy?
http://www.usaknifemaker.com/abrasive-belt-basics-what-kind-should-i-buy-p-1393.html


Safety Equipment
Protect your -Eyes, Ears, Fingers, and Lungs – remove jewellery and put on safety gear.

Respirators
Chronic lung disease and cancer really suck the joy out of life.
Don't believe me? google "Ed Caffrey lung cancer" and see what he has to say about it.

The minimum I would consider are the 3M 7500 and North 7700 silicone half masks with a P100 Filter.
Use a VOC & P100 combo cartridge for protection against acetone and solvents.
There are also prefilters that snap over the main filter for longer life.

For beards, pick one of these
3M PAPR
Resp-O-Rator
3m Breathe Easy
Trend Airshield Pro
Air Cap II


Searching
Search works for ALL users, even unpaid users.
Try it, I’ll bet you’re not the first to ask the question here

This is a special Google page that searches BF only & works better than the forum search.
http://www.google.com/cse/home?cx=011197018607028182644:qfobr3dlcra

V22 Dec 1, 2011.

Countavatar.jpg
 
nothing against your design but that is not a practical knife it would be ridiculous to sharpen and very front heavy
 
Also Barry, something to think about regarding the saw back: Every time you saw, the teeth have to clear the chips from the width of the blade. With that thick of knife, that's a lot of wood. There's a reason saw blades are very thin. Also, looking at your handle's guards, I think they'd probably get in the way when sawing.
 
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