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New Orleans, the shame of America
- Thread starter DannyinJapan
- Start date
Steve, my 'connections' don't matter squat. A simple apology on your part for bigotry and borishness would have helped your cause considerably. You are unyeilding and isolated in your understanding.
That defines boorish.
Tell it to the Japanese. Don't tell it to me. I have nothing to do with it.
It's OK for you to attack Danny because he might be Japanese but that is somehow my problem for calling attention to it?
Who are you fooling? Not many.
You lay a big fat egg, insult any fair minded person, say it's somehow my fault, and then say you will walk away.
What a misundersood soul you are. Gee, I've been so unfair. Could be I'm Japansese also.
Edit- Steve Poll has three deleted posts self serving and aggressive; he's removed them, but cannot take responsibility for his actions. He calls for the REmoval of this political thread yet one more time- then ducks out being unwilling to face the consequences of hypocritical inconsistancy. - No apology yet to Danny in Japan or the forum- just whinng and 'munk is mean to me."
Yeah- it's all my fault. I'm so all powerful. The heavens themselves tremble as I speak, before bursting into laughter knowing I'm just another flawed human- about 10 clicks more humility that STEVE POLL can muster in his sleep.
One of Steve's latest edited posts: "Hi Nasty, this is a political thread. Political = bickering. That's why we have a site for that purpose. Please move it."
(I've insulted people but now can't answer for my actions and would rather the whole thing go away. I don't like political threads but love getting my two cents in before calling the whole thing unfair and asking for it all to go away.") quotes mine- not Poll's. He's not that honest. )
munk
That defines boorish.
Tell it to the Japanese. Don't tell it to me. I have nothing to do with it.
It's OK for you to attack Danny because he might be Japanese but that is somehow my problem for calling attention to it?
Who are you fooling? Not many.
You lay a big fat egg, insult any fair minded person, say it's somehow my fault, and then say you will walk away.
What a misundersood soul you are. Gee, I've been so unfair. Could be I'm Japansese also.
Edit- Steve Poll has three deleted posts self serving and aggressive; he's removed them, but cannot take responsibility for his actions. He calls for the REmoval of this political thread yet one more time- then ducks out being unwilling to face the consequences of hypocritical inconsistancy. - No apology yet to Danny in Japan or the forum- just whinng and 'munk is mean to me."
Yeah- it's all my fault. I'm so all powerful. The heavens themselves tremble as I speak, before bursting into laughter knowing I'm just another flawed human- about 10 clicks more humility that STEVE POLL can muster in his sleep.
One of Steve's latest edited posts: "Hi Nasty, this is a political thread. Political = bickering. That's why we have a site for that purpose. Please move it."
(I've insulted people but now can't answer for my actions and would rather the whole thing go away. I don't like political threads but love getting my two cents in before calling the whole thing unfair and asking for it all to go away.") quotes mine- not Poll's. He's not that honest. )
munk
Munk,
I think we have to distinguish actions from intentions. I absolutely agree that, for instance, 9/11 was mass murder, and have always thought it should be prosecuted as such. I wish to hell that we’d seen Bin Laden’s sorry backside in a court long since, swiftly followed by punishment. If the West bases its political systems (and its claim to the moral high ground) on the Rule of Law, then that’s what the Rule of Law would look like.
But while the action was mass-murder, the intention was to promote a particular ideology – Jihadist Islam. That’s what distinguishes Al Quaeda from, say, the Mob. And to “win” in a fight against a religious group, you need to understand what’s promoting the fanaticism … and cut away the supports. It’s a marketplace of ideas out there – and in some parts of the world, jihadist Islam is winning, rather than Enlightenment-based ideas about democracy and human rights. We need to know why – what’s making it look more attractive – so attractive that folks will willingly get blown to smithereens to support it.
‘Cause the bottom line is, folks are willing to get blown to smithereens, in the tens of thousands. And the dubious promise of 72 virgins can’t be so attractive (stacked beside the more believable promises presented by Christina Aguilera, Britney Spears, and Girls Gone Wild) that it accounts for that willingness.
I agree that Western civilization is in crisis – being threatened frankly from without and from within. We need to understand the nature of that crisis, if we’ve a hope of resolving it. I don’t think that a war will, by itself, have a hope of promoting that understanding … though war may be a necessary component of a well-thought-out response.
t.
I think we have to distinguish actions from intentions. I absolutely agree that, for instance, 9/11 was mass murder, and have always thought it should be prosecuted as such. I wish to hell that we’d seen Bin Laden’s sorry backside in a court long since, swiftly followed by punishment. If the West bases its political systems (and its claim to the moral high ground) on the Rule of Law, then that’s what the Rule of Law would look like.
But while the action was mass-murder, the intention was to promote a particular ideology – Jihadist Islam. That’s what distinguishes Al Quaeda from, say, the Mob. And to “win” in a fight against a religious group, you need to understand what’s promoting the fanaticism … and cut away the supports. It’s a marketplace of ideas out there – and in some parts of the world, jihadist Islam is winning, rather than Enlightenment-based ideas about democracy and human rights. We need to know why – what’s making it look more attractive – so attractive that folks will willingly get blown to smithereens to support it.
‘Cause the bottom line is, folks are willing to get blown to smithereens, in the tens of thousands. And the dubious promise of 72 virgins can’t be so attractive (stacked beside the more believable promises presented by Christina Aguilera, Britney Spears, and Girls Gone Wild) that it accounts for that willingness.
I agree that Western civilization is in crisis – being threatened frankly from without and from within. We need to understand the nature of that crisis, if we’ve a hope of resolving it. I don’t think that a war will, by itself, have a hope of promoting that understanding … though war may be a necessary component of a well-thought-out response.
t.
AS I said- education in the long run. "The market place of ideas" becomes just another rationalization for all ideas are equal, and a kind of academic experiment that if in a bell jar might be fascinating, but in reality a catastrosphy.
We don't wait for subtle points while nuclear bombs are being sought. This is not college.
munk
We don't wait for subtle points while nuclear bombs are being sought. This is not college.
munk
- Joined
- Apr 18, 2006
- Messages
- 657
Well, Munk, if seeking nukes is the problem, why did we let North Korea get a nuke?
We sat by while they said they were developing nukes, and we sat by after they said they have one or two. Oh, we are negotiating, I forgot. But... we don't negotiate with terrorists, I thought? And... isn't North Korea in Bush's axis of evil?
Iran says they are developing nuke power
We say they are making a bomb
We stand by and negotiate with another axis of evil country.
We don't seem to care about Nukes in general, but Nukes in Iraq, well we will kill people for that.
Where is the grand strategy here, I am missing it.
We sat by while they said they were developing nukes, and we sat by after they said they have one or two. Oh, we are negotiating, I forgot. But... we don't negotiate with terrorists, I thought? And... isn't North Korea in Bush's axis of evil?
Iran says they are developing nuke power
We say they are making a bomb
We stand by and negotiate with another axis of evil country.
We don't seem to care about Nukes in general, but Nukes in Iraq, well we will kill people for that.
Where is the grand strategy here, I am missing it.
Oy. That wasn't my meaning ... I don't think all ideas are equal. I'm very happy to be living in the Enlightenment-influenced West, rather than in the Jihadist-influenced Middle East.
Marketplace = more than one ideology is competing for adherents. Some folks buy one idea, others another ... currently the Jihadists are making more converts in Afghanistan than the western democrats. I don't think we'll convince the population by dropping bombs - and as Russia is proving, I don't think we can anticipate a successful democracy in a place where there's been no political culture to enable it.
I fully expect the Iraqi parliament to be an abysmal failure, due to a lack of pre-existing political culture to support a democracy. No history of civil society, no history of freedom of speech, no history of compromise, no history that people can feel effective in making peaceful change. If Latin America's example means anything, that will come ... but will take decades to grow.
But it's critical that we understand what's recruiting impressionable folks to the jihadists, and offer something better. Something THEY understand as better. So far, they haven't percieved our offerings that way...
Marketplace = more than one ideology is competing for adherents. Some folks buy one idea, others another ... currently the Jihadists are making more converts in Afghanistan than the western democrats. I don't think we'll convince the population by dropping bombs - and as Russia is proving, I don't think we can anticipate a successful democracy in a place where there's been no political culture to enable it.
I fully expect the Iraqi parliament to be an abysmal failure, due to a lack of pre-existing political culture to support a democracy. No history of civil society, no history of freedom of speech, no history of compromise, no history that people can feel effective in making peaceful change. If Latin America's example means anything, that will come ... but will take decades to grow.
But it's critical that we understand what's recruiting impressionable folks to the jihadists, and offer something better. Something THEY understand as better. So far, they haven't percieved our offerings that way...
Tom,
You are splitting nuance and philosophy that is best understood in a University, not the real world.
"But it's critical that we understand what's recruiting impressionable folks to the jihadists, and offer something better. Something THEY understand as better. So far, they haven't percieved our offerings that way..."
Wrong. We don't 'reach' them, we reach the heart and soul of the majority of the Iraqis; and we are doing that despite what the New York Times reports. Just look at the recent raid on Bagdag by the Iraqi armed forces and Police, and the huge, heart felt cheer of the Iraq assembly to Gearge Bush.
munk
You are splitting nuance and philosophy that is best understood in a University, not the real world.
"But it's critical that we understand what's recruiting impressionable folks to the jihadists, and offer something better. Something THEY understand as better. So far, they haven't percieved our offerings that way..."
Wrong. We don't 'reach' them, we reach the heart and soul of the majority of the Iraqis; and we are doing that despite what the New York Times reports. Just look at the recent raid on Bagdag by the Iraqi armed forces and Police, and the huge, heart felt cheer of the Iraq assembly to Gearge Bush.
munk
Well, Munk, if seeking nukes is the problem, why did we let North Korea get a nuke?
We sat by while they said they were developing nukes, and we sat by after they said they have one or two. Oh, we are negotiating, I forgot.>>>>>>>>>>
Shadow
Life is not 'fair' Shadow, and all nations and situations are not the same. Is N Korea sitting in the heart land of the Islam world and the oil bread basket? No. Does that mean we did it for the 'oil"? ONly in the sense that radicalism controlling the Middle East ends oil production and the Western way of life- the current zenith of civilization.
munk
We sat by while they said they were developing nukes, and we sat by after they said they have one or two. Oh, we are negotiating, I forgot.>>>>>>>>>>
Shadow
Life is not 'fair' Shadow, and all nations and situations are not the same. Is N Korea sitting in the heart land of the Islam world and the oil bread basket? No. Does that mean we did it for the 'oil"? ONly in the sense that radicalism controlling the Middle East ends oil production and the Western way of life- the current zenith of civilization.
munk
- Joined
- Apr 18, 2006
- Messages
- 657
<<sigh>>
You see it right in front of you but you don't grasp what you are seeing.
The story of Iraq is the story of a power grab, pure and simple. You see that. You think it is Good vs Evil, but it is not really that. It is Power vs Power, and both sides just want more.
Sure, I am an American, and I am glad I live here. But I would not say we are as good as it gets. We are #11 in giving our citizens a free press. We are high in poverty in our own land. And we are famous world wide for imposing our views on everyone else.
Munk, nothing we say here is going to change anything. Sometimes I don't know why I even write, we won't change each other's minds. but, it is fun to debate, and we still have the freedom to do it, so thank God for that!
I don't know if it means anything, but let it be said I do love this country, and I am no longer a conservative; Bush has driven me out of that. But, I don't think it is good to look with rose colored glasses either.
You see it right in front of you but you don't grasp what you are seeing.
The story of Iraq is the story of a power grab, pure and simple. You see that. You think it is Good vs Evil, but it is not really that. It is Power vs Power, and both sides just want more.
Sure, I am an American, and I am glad I live here. But I would not say we are as good as it gets. We are #11 in giving our citizens a free press. We are high in poverty in our own land. And we are famous world wide for imposing our views on everyone else.
Munk, nothing we say here is going to change anything. Sometimes I don't know why I even write, we won't change each other's minds. but, it is fun to debate, and we still have the freedom to do it, so thank God for that!
I don't know if it means anything, but let it be said I do love this country, and I am no longer a conservative; Bush has driven me out of that. But, I don't think it is good to look with rose colored glasses either.
- Joined
- Sep 22, 2003
- Messages
- 13,182
TomFetter said:
Good post.
How many times have you got into an argument with somebody, it turned into a shouting match, then a fistfight and after the thing was done the person who got beat got up and dusted himself off and said "Gee, I see your point now"
- Joined
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- 19,791
The_Shadow said:
IMHO..... Yes.
Yeah- that's it Hollow- we're just 'dropping bombs'. Funny how the majority of the population of Iraq is on our side, and wants our presence- something the New York Times and the Guardian would rather not look at.
When in doubt- just accuse of us as 'dropping bombs". We're such brutes- the US- why, were responsible for the pain and chaos in the world, we are the terrorists. Our fault. Can't do nothing right.
You know, when we 'invaded' France during D Day, we receieved resistance from the German sympathetic French,a relatively small percent of France people - that did not make us BAD.
There will always be dissent. There was dissent when we went in to WWll. There was dissent when we fought the British in 1775.
munk
When in doubt- just accuse of us as 'dropping bombs". We're such brutes- the US- why, were responsible for the pain and chaos in the world, we are the terrorists. Our fault. Can't do nothing right.
You know, when we 'invaded' France during D Day, we receieved resistance from the German sympathetic French,a relatively small percent of France people - that did not make us BAD.
There will always be dissent. There was dissent when we went in to WWll. There was dissent when we fought the British in 1775.
munk
- Joined
- Sep 22, 2003
- Messages
- 13,182
munk said:
No homeboy, it's not an all or nothing thing. Iraq was wrong. I do think we should give it more time to see if it will turn around because I think we owe it to the Iraqi's I mean Saddam killed a few thousand but what they estimate between 30,000 and 100,000 have been killed since the start of the war?
I mean we screwed up the country big time, criminals and international terrorists kidnapping people right and left. The Shiite gov't affiliiated death squads killing Sunnis, the Sunnis bombing Shiite mosques, and decapitating people. I mean when Saddam was in power as long as you didn't question him you could live a pretty normal life. Now even non political people are at risk of being blown up, robbed kidnapped for money. We should at least give it another year or two to see if it turns around. We owe it to the poor folks whose lives we disrupted.
No need to call me 'homeboy' when your logic and rhetoric is falling short.
No one said anything about all or nothing, all good or bad. We made a choice in a grey world. We don't have luxury for a another Pearl Harbor.
We did not 'screw up the country big time". What nonsense. Much of the world's nations are 'screwed up." The US did not present anything new to Iraq other than freedom. The deaths now go towards a time of self determination; previously, deaths were a result of totalitarianism and no good end.
munk
No one said anything about all or nothing, all good or bad. We made a choice in a grey world. We don't have luxury for a another Pearl Harbor.
We did not 'screw up the country big time". What nonsense. Much of the world's nations are 'screwed up." The US did not present anything new to Iraq other than freedom. The deaths now go towards a time of self determination; previously, deaths were a result of totalitarianism and no good end.
munk
- Joined
- Sep 22, 2003
- Messages
- 13,182
munk said:
You must have misunderstood me. You originally lived in WV so you are my homeboy. I meant it in a good way:thumbup:
One of my best friends lives in NJ now and I always call him homeboy but he knows I mean it as a term of endearment
- Joined
- Jun 4, 2004
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- 1,163
I too think the West is crumbling. However, I think the enlightenment did more harm than good!
I would trace the prosperity and freedom of the west back to the reformation.
That legacy is being, largely has been, lost, even, especially, in "religious" circles.
Blame me and my fellow Christians. We have done a poor job of being salt and light.
Sometimes, the "far right" can have somewthing in common with the "left".
I think we should have Taken Saddam out. he had violated the terms of the gulf war treaty in many ways and for a long time.
I don't think we should force three competing cultures to live together under artificial boundaries though. let the Sunnis go their way, the Shia go theirs, and let the Kurds have their own country too. If someone there in the future presents a threat, we can take care of busienss then.
A marine Major I know that spent 8 months in Iraq as an advisor to an Iraqi unit in fallujah shares the opinion that we either should get brutal, or get out. He believes the Iraqis will get brutal when we get out. he says they wish we would get out, so they can get things straight themselves.
I wonder why we can't just do the job that is necessary, then get out? Why did we have to occupy Japan after WWII? Once they were militarily impotent, why did we have to drop the bomb? Did we really need to invade the home islands? What did US Grant start with his "unconditional surrender" idea? How much good did the treaty of Versailles ultimately do?
I wonder why we can't get ourselves off of Middle eastern oil.
I bet we could if we tried!
As far as long term, "If your enemy is hungry, feed him, etc" might not be a bad idea, so I agree with the thought that we need to try and help the people over there have a good and prosperous life.
Enough mumbling for now, I guess!
Tom
I would trace the prosperity and freedom of the west back to the reformation.
That legacy is being, largely has been, lost, even, especially, in "religious" circles.
Blame me and my fellow Christians. We have done a poor job of being salt and light.
Sometimes, the "far right" can have somewthing in common with the "left".
I think we should have Taken Saddam out. he had violated the terms of the gulf war treaty in many ways and for a long time.
I don't think we should force three competing cultures to live together under artificial boundaries though. let the Sunnis go their way, the Shia go theirs, and let the Kurds have their own country too. If someone there in the future presents a threat, we can take care of busienss then.
A marine Major I know that spent 8 months in Iraq as an advisor to an Iraqi unit in fallujah shares the opinion that we either should get brutal, or get out. He believes the Iraqis will get brutal when we get out. he says they wish we would get out, so they can get things straight themselves.
I wonder why we can't just do the job that is necessary, then get out? Why did we have to occupy Japan after WWII? Once they were militarily impotent, why did we have to drop the bomb? Did we really need to invade the home islands? What did US Grant start with his "unconditional surrender" idea? How much good did the treaty of Versailles ultimately do?
I wonder why we can't get ourselves off of Middle eastern oil.
I bet we could if we tried!
As far as long term, "If your enemy is hungry, feed him, etc" might not be a bad idea, so I agree with the thought that we need to try and help the people over there have a good and prosperous life.
Enough mumbling for now, I guess!
Tom