New sebenza prices for 2005

[QUOTE As long as the quality is always there, i have no problem with price.[/QUOTE]

I'm happy to participate in the adulation in this forum, but then there's also a place for critical discussion. If we're to change from subjective adulation to objective discussion as about the choice of materials or prices, we should recognize that such familiar statements like "if Chris decided to do it, then it's good enough for me" or "if people buy it, then it's worth it" aren't really valid arguments.
If we're to discuss something Chris changed, like S30V vs. BG-42, then citing the fact that he decided to change isn't proof that that's good - we have to figure out for ourselves on what objective grounds his decision might be the right one; and likewise, if the price is raised, again we have to try and work out on what grounds we think this is justified or not, and whether we're happy to pay that price, or think it's out of proportion. To say that the price must be okay because the knives are still bought is like the cat chasing its own tail, because we're the community of avid buyers, and it's for us to decide whether we think that price justified, or overblown - whether we're merely a cult, or a sect - whether we're willing to pay for quality, or for a hype we're creating ourselves - remember the real estate or dot-com bubbles where avid buying was justified on the grounds of avid buying.
So to get down to the question of "for quality, I'm willing to pay anything", the major of the few objective ways of discussing any price above the cost of production and marketing etc., is comparison to similar products. And to induce serious discussion, here I could point out that I've just bought two knives of famous designers and well-respected companies, made of S30V and titanium, that are generally considered both beautiful and innovative, more so than is generally said about the Sebenza, and as to the decisive point of quality in the sense of "perfect fit and finish", well, they're both famed for their semi-custom quality in independent reviews in the knife press... AND BOTH KNIVES TOGETHER COST LESS THAN THE SEBENZA'S OLD PRICE!
So that's what one has to compare the Sebenza to, and justify the pricing against, not some imaginary custom knives that are mostly justified in their pricing through the lesser economy of scale, and the handiwork, and the exclusivity... at best, those could serve as the collector's reference point for limited edition Sebbies, but again, that's the justification for the limited ed. Sebbies being so much more expensive than the less exclusive Sebbies, and can't at the same time be the justification for the large-production ones being as expensive or even more expensive than custom-made knives...
unless, of course, we're to say: hey other knives are just knives, but Sebbies are from outer space, and if CR has the monopoly, any price on them is justified by that very fact... ??? :confused:
 
I agree with you concerning justifying statements.

amed for their semi-custom quality in independent reviews in the knife press
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Hey! that's one of those useless measures that you just complained about!

I would like to know which knives you're talking about the the last half. I've owned a Buck/Mayo 172 for example, from my personal view I don't like certain aspects of the design, and from an F&F point of view while it's nice, it certainly didn't meet sebenza standards.
 
I see your point, but i love perfection, and if for 330.00 i can buy perfection; its not even a question. There are so many other areas in life to worry about and if for 330.00 i can buy a perfect knife, im sold.
 
DaveH said:
Hey! that's one of those useless measures that you just complained about!
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No, I wasn't saying one can't compare the quality or even the price of a high-end production knife to that of a custom-made one, but that this is being done with other production folders beside the Sebenza, which also have the same materials and if anything better-looking and more innovative designs etc. , and which are made and sold for LESS THAN HALF of the Sebbie's old price... and that these are a better or at least equally valid reference point for the Sebbie pricing than always those custom-mades which justify their price not by being better than CRs, but by being rarer, more hand-made etc.!

so I'd like to hear if there are any more objective justifications for the price raise than just the usual "but I love it so" - heck, same here, I have several Sebbies and one Mnandi and wasn't the only one to consider them overpriced even at the old price but still bought them out of love for perfection etc....
but the point is, is the fact that we love and buy them so much the very reason why we have to pay more for them now?

Btw, my price comparison only holds because of the rigid control CR exerts over the retailers' prices, which is strangely missing from the discussion too.

(Hi DaveH, I didn't name the particular knives because I wanted to have this discussed in principle, and not get bogged down in the details and subjectivity of a discussion of "name any knife vs. Sebbie - Sebbie wins! Sure it does, at least in this forum :-) but still the general point was that there are folders that are absolutely comparable in all the elementary aspects that I listed, for less than half the old price... so even if their handling or finish or durability should not be quite as convincing to some Sebenzanistas, that doesn't get rid of the argument, and in fact others don't think the handling or the looks etc. of the Sebbie are unsurpassed - but if you can't think of any folders that fit my description, Dave, I can point out a few to you in private, if you want to let me know your e-mail address)
 
I don't think you can compare in general any two knives because even though may have similar materials they will have different sizes and different looks. Further, better looking is subjective so it has no value in objective comparisons. By not defining innovation, neither of us can argue anything because innovation may or may not be better. I come back to that one cannot make general objective comparisons, unless it's specific knives we are comparing.

I did think of one general comparison I can make. Any knife that's compared against the sebenza MUST have a pivot bushing. If a knife doesn't then it's immediately clear it's inferior. I'll argue that any knife above $100 SHOULD have a pivot bushing, or the user is getting ripped off. For me that totally dispqualifies any upscale knife that doesn't have one.

I don't know what price control has to do with it. In fact for any knife that goes through the manufacturere, distributer, retailer chain probably increases the price of that knife 300%. Whereas the sebbie only gains maybe 30% ( A guess on my part)

I'll guess I'll reiterate, there no knife I know of that even comes close, so I guess I'll have to send you email.

:p

Oh, just wanted to add that some spyderco's and benchmades are approaching used sebbie prices, which is interesting because the poeple that complain about sebbies not being worth it should be absolutely having a cow over the Spydercos and benchmades.

PPS: can't send ya email because you have it turned off. Send me a list if you don't mind.
 
DaveH said:
I don't think you can compare in general any two knives
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Sorry, have adjusted the e-mail options now, please try again, or let's start a new thread for comparing knives 1:1...

As to comparing, I always wonder why people jump to the conclusion that you can't compare something because there's a difference...
I've expressly tried to make sure that we're not talking about subjective differences regarding two particular knives, but about generally accepted attributes common to Seb's and other high-end production folders relating to pricing, and if as is my experience there are knives of the same material and make or type (and pivot bushings :-) and they're also objectively reviewed in the same terms describing quality, then I don't know why you shouldn't use them in a pricing discussion...
it is as I'm saying a much larger leap to compare the Sebbie to custom-mades:
an original Loveless may compare itself to the Mona Lisa and command any price, but a production version has to be compared to other high-class production knives... and guess what, you get the Loveless rigids and folders as well as top-end Onions, Tighes, Striders etc. not just for a lot less but A LOT LESS THAN HALF of the Sebbie's OLD price!
that's not like the Mona Lisa vs. a run-of-the-mill Holbein portrait, that's more like my favorite Sushi or doughnot shop not just asking twice as much as any other such shop but actually asking me to be happy with another price rise... if then I'm asked to look for justifications for that, I'd enquire whether they use so much more expensives materials or manual procedures or what not, but if they don't and just say our timing is more perfect and you do love and buy it don't you, well then I'm not sure I'd be satisfied with them ripping me off even more, and will still buy there but not so often and not so happily!

What price control has to do with it? Well, a lot of the other knives I've named originally have a MSRP not so much less than CR's, but then you'll be able to find them at more affordable prices... CR is to my knowledge uniquely restrictive in exerting control on its retailers... hasn't that to do with pricing policy?

Hope I'm making some sense now,
no offence,
tristram
 
Don't worry, I'm not taking offense.

My point being is that lack of a pivot bushing means they can't be compared at all. That single issue will disqualify any other knife regardles of it's similarity in materials, price, appearance, etc. If a knife does not have a pivot bushing then it's an inferior design, therefore an inferior knife and so should be much cheaper price. This is a objective measure, so it's valid to use either comparing to a specific knife or in general to other knives.
 
I'll put it this way --- the price increase will not cause me to cancel any CRK knife orders anytime soon.
 
I've got a small and Im fixin' to get a large. It will be my first folder purchase since buying my small sebbie 2 years ago!! I figure the large will finish up my folders except for maybe a mnandi for summer shorts carry or something. Hell, seems to be saving me money. On folders anyway. Now if I can shake the Busse and Swamp Rat fixed blade bug, I'll have it made.!! :rolleyes: ;) A few more hard earned bucks for a knife I LOVE? Not a biggie. That's my choice. YMMV.
 
The reason Chris increases prices is to decrease demand. I have a large number of his knives and I feel that they are a bargain. I have also bought some custom knives in the $350 range that are very nice and some customs that aren't so nice. If most people won't pay the extra price, demand will decrease and his prices will drop. Yeah his knives are expensive but I will continue to buy them. Do I like price increases? No. But to, me his knives at his new prices are more than fair. :eek: :p ;) :)
 
raceofassassins said:
I've got a small and Im fixin' to get a large. It will be my first folder purchase since buying my small sebbie 2 years ago!! I figure the large will finish up my folders except for maybe a mnandi for summer shorts carry or something. Hell, seems to be saving me money. On folders anyway. Now if I can shake the Busse and Swamp Rat fixed blade bug, I'll have it made.!! :rolleyes: ;) A few more hard earned bucks for a knife I LOVE? Not a biggie. That's my choice. YMMV.
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I have a large Mayonized (my ONLY folder) and am sorta looking for a small with the same treatment. I know it's saving me money, I have no need or desire for another folder (except perhaps the small) and it gets carried every day.

As far as the Busse/Swamp Rat bug, I understand. One of those is on the other side and they get rotated. The Sebbie though, is a constant.

Rob
 
Scott Dog said:
The reason Chris increases prices is to decrease demand.. to me his knives at his new prices are more than fair. :eek: :p ;) :)
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well in that case, shouldn't prices be raised, why not to 3.300, or 33.000$?
I haven't heard anything that would disagree with that, on the contrary: everyone including myself is saying we're still going to buy them, and a lot of people say that's why the prices rise to decrease demand, and they're still going to buy them although they already have a large number, and this demand is supposed to be the justification for the price rise. If that's your view, okay, then this spiral could go up to the sums I've mentioned. I just wanted to point out that this means we have to pay so much and more and more money because we're paying so much and more and more money. If you're happy with that, okay.
Apart from this argument of the mere market force that we're creating ourselves, there's also the argument of a love for perfection. Again, this can take you to 330.000$: After all, a Rolls Royce isn't absolutely perfect (and does it have pivot bushings, Dave ?:-), so why should a piece of perfection like the Sebbie not be more than that? Or some change the argument of perfection slightly to the argument of love - more bucks for the knife I love no problem - well, surely, for the thing you love you're willing to pay no end of money? And again you have no basis for saying 3.3000.00 is too much...

The only attempt I've seen to take up my suggestion for some objective and comparative discussion relating the sebbie price to the price of comparable knives, and hence to the cost of producing and marketing a high-end knife, came from Dave, who used the argument that no knife that doesn't have a particular feature of the Sebbie would even come close to a comparison. Yes, you can always find a feature of the Sebbie that a particular other knife doesn't have and then get fixated on that single aspect and say for you that makes the Sebbie so singular that it no longer bears any relation to its would-be competitors... and again you no longer have any way to estimate whether 33.000.000 isn't a bit overpriced (or whether you're still in an objective and balanced mind-set ;-)
But the fact is, the Sebbie is a high-end production folder, not a custom rarity
the fact is, this means its price can be compared to other such folders
the fact is, high-end means by definition they're not made cheaply or shoddily
the fact is, many of them are widely recognized to be like custom-quality
the fact is, any particular feature of the Sebbie is also present in other folders
the fact is, these competitors also have features the Sebbie doesn't excel in
the fact is, many of these can be had for less than half the old Seb price
I consider these to be empirical and logical facts, and can offer evidence and proof should there be serious doubt on them. (I may be wrong on specifics, but these should be correct in priniciple, and no subjective generalities but highly pertinent general facts.)
The conclusion is up to you, if you care to draw any :-)
In my view, the logical conclusion is that while the quality of the Sebbie may be unsurpassed, its price doesn't have to be so out of proportion and is in fact (as Scott suggested before declaring this more than fair) hyped up by our very eagerness to buy one after the other with such fake arguments like "you'll save money, as you never need another knife" ("and then you'll soon buy a woodie, and a Mnandi, and different sizes and shapes and inlays...").
Well, I have several knives that cost more than my sebbies, beyond the thousand-dollar mark in the case of my Sashimi knife (Yanagi-ba), and was happy to pay that because of their price-value in relation to what comparable knives offered... I'm happy with the value of my Sebbies, but I cannot be happy with their unparalleled and enforced price going up, i.e. their price-value relationship getting even worse - for no good reason that I've heard so far.
Never doubting the Sebbie, but its pricing,
tristram
 
I've always looked at it this way. Chris has no trouble selling all the Sebenzas he can make in a year. If he was chargin more then a fair price for them, wouldn't you think some other company would come in and make a knife of similar quality for a lesser price? I haven't seen it yet. I've seen others try. Buck tried with the Buck/Mayo and made a nice knife for just under $200 but it was plaqued by inconsistant quality control. The Camilus Dominator is a great knife for around $150 and probably the closest I've seen anyone come to a Sebenza but it still wasn't there. No other knife I know of has the pivot bushing other then Scott Cook which will cost you a fair bit more then your basic Sebbie.

I do think the Seb is an expensive knife, but I still beleive it is worth the cost for someone who wants perfection. If you beleive you can find that elsewhere for less money then by all means, buy that and forget about the Sebenza. I would argue that your idea of perfection is less then that of mine, but whatever. I have yet to see a knife that acheives such perfect fit and finish with such consistancy at this price level. Until I see that then I don't see how one can argue that the Sebenza is overpriced.
 
slide13 said:
I would argue that your idea of perfection is less then that of mine, but whatever. I have yet to see a knife that acheives such perfect fit and finish with such consistancy at this price level. Until I see that then I don't see how one can argue that the Sebenza is overpriced.
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Well said, really!
but:
I don't know how you make out someone who's prepared to pay thousands of dollars for Japanese blades (and to buy Sebbies at whatever price) has an imperfect idea of perfection ;-)
And I've never said other knives are just as perfect as the Seb... the question is, what price perfection? unlimited? or based on actual costs, to be measured in relation to competing knives of similar make...
and despite appearance I've not so much argued (only personally concluded, which is different) that the Seb is overpriced, but rather that I have yet to hear arguments why it should be so much more expensive than other high-end knives that cannot objectively be considered to be of much cheaper make, and that until I hear them I consider a price difference of more than 100% exorbitant, no matter how much we like CRK (and can cite a lot of independent criteria like knive mag reviews to support this opinion).
How much is a pivot bushing worth in your view? And if I name other knives who have this, won't you say e.g. well they don't have bronze washers or a lanyard hole just in the right place or the best clip design or they can't be taken apart so easily, without ever considering that these features can be viewed as advantages or disadvantages over other knives, and in any case don't necessarily affect price (the simplicity of the Seb is a plus for quality in a way, but should not lead to a higher price than more complex knives)?
I compare it to my old Breezer, the most perfect mountain bike in my view, with objective details no other bike had, but basically the perfection lay only in the magic of everything that others had too working out so perfectly together in this bike - but really, I wouldn't have been been prepared to be more than 100% for just this magical advantage over competitors of the same make and materials...
The difference between us maybe is that I include the price-value relationship in my view of perfection. What about that?
best,
t.
 
tristram I'm not going to address you in email anymore because it's pointless.

However I will suggest this, you claim no one will have a rational discussion about this, actually it's you that has poor logic skills, poor memory and insufficeint courage to admit when you've been bested by sound logical argument. You cope by repeating the same arguments over and over, which are based on irrational assumptions and criteria, and by dragging in additonal irrelevant comparisons.

If the price change is too much for you. Don't buy them, and if you get twice as much good out of your 2 Keshaw blurs then good for you.

I'll also say, am I'm guessing you're in Europe, that as the dollar continues to fall against the Euro, the price increase won't matter that much to you.
 
DaveH said:
[see above - very much from above ;-]
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Thank you Dave,
we all can see how well you remember what I've been saying about having bought and being about to buy more Sebbies as well as much more expensive knives..
we all can see how objective and relevant your observation on exchange rate is to our discussion of the relation of the Sebbie price to that of other high-end knives...
we all can see how easily you jump to charges of lack of logic in others without any evidence even though you've been proven wrong and inattentive in making such accusations wrongly on this thread before...
we see what courage you display in not addressing any of my evidence and arguments but taking the last refuge of those who are bested, mere abuse
we see how rational your criteria are in claiming the Sebbie is beyond comparison even in its pricing just because it has pivot bushing and others don't ...

well, I've done a quick research on this forum, which you defender of specifics didn't bother to do, and have found that
1st, there are quite a number of other knives that have pivot bushing and naturally are cheaper than the Sebbie: several Microtechs, M.O.D.s, Cutters as well as the Scott Cook and according to Lovegasoline the CRKT M16
and, am I not right to assume that this won't satisfy you that these are comparable but you'll now if anything jump to other features that you believe make the Sebbie uniquely beyond compare, instead of considering my proven and confirmed argument that any feature of the Seb can be found in others, while others have also features the Sebbie doesn't excel in, so there's little sense in cutting off all comparison just because one subjectively insists on one single aspect?
2nd, you seem to be pretty idiosyncratic in elevating pivot bushing to the very definition of a high-end knife and branding as irrational my statement that high-end means "not cheap or shoddy", because as should be expected and as seasoned members confirm pivot bushing has cons as well as pros and is to some pretty irrelevant (e.g., ErikD.), and custom-makers mostly choose not to use it.... what, because they don't care ot make high-end knives?
and as I've been pointing out, other knives with other solutions are generally considered to be of top- and custom-like quality in independent reviews - I've named lots others than just the Bump, not the Blur, of which I don't have two, but one, O thou carefullest of readers :-)
and while it's okay if you only like pivot bushing, why have you failed to name what price difference you think the pivot bushing is worth for the sake of an objective comparative discussion - not just in answer to me, but also for instance in the pitifully unanswered question posed by ht@intekom.co.za on the use and value of pivot bushings...

Whereas I've seen in my research that you are a seasoned campaigner, and are quite familiar and have hardened your views though not honed your arguments in exchanges with the views of Erik D., averageguy, Moine, speedfan, db, Will P., dennis75, hardheart, allenC, brownshoe, JeremyReynolds, cockroachfarm etc. to name but a few who have all expressed similar attitudes to mine... the difference being, I do consider myself a Sebenzanista and Mnandinista, I just don't see why I should give up critical thinking and a love of discussion, and believe I´ve given a pretty systematic exposition of arguments suggesting that the reasons given here so far to justify whatever price the Sebbie has and may come to be are rather grounded in hype than in fact - which is basically what people like Scott have been saying in other words, they just see any problem with that, and I do...

But could it be that this is not the forum to discuss, but only to affirm loyalty to, the Sebenza? Can it be true that this forum might have been described by Orwell with "Sebbie good, others bad" ;-) i.e. that it's dedicated to members sharing and confirming and congratulating each other on their enthusiasm and loyalty with no taste for awkward questions?
Then I mistook the statement that this forum was dedicated to the discussion of CR knives...
I feel like someone entering a political discussion forum and questioning why the fact that the reasons given to take war to Iraq (involvement in 9/11, WMDs, clear and imminent danger to the the US and Great Britain etc.) were blatant nonsense doesn't bother anyone or make them dubious about being set up for the next war, only to find out that they're not in a discussion forum but in a Republican party rally...
Then I apologize, you see I'm a relative newbie here, so please forgive, and I'll bother you here no more ... ;-(
bye, t.
:confused: :( :o
 
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