New Subforum: Hammer & Tongs

Searching for your answer before posting a thread is a rule in alot of other forums. Since I started hanging out in the shop talk forum things have changed a lot. It seems some people post just for the sake of posting. To me it dilutes all the good stuff. I may be alone in thinking that but I think it would be a good thing to have the newbies post there first knife wips and repetitive questions in their own forum. If no one answered them it would force them to search for themselves. I understand everyone's points, and what I'm saying is just my opinion.
 
I agree also leethal. Being a relative noob myself with only about 35 knives cometed I benefit greatly from the informative posts by great makers, however as you stated, it's gets tedious sitting through the " what do I need to start" and "can I use some steel I got from ....." And "how do I heat treat stop sign steel" and "check out my 2x4 handled knife with no bevels" In a beginners forum these would be segregated and not push the highly valued topics off the first page of shop talk as quickly. It's is not uncommon to see virtually the same question 3 or more times on the first page. I think many posters not only fail to search, but don't even look at current posts to see if their question is already being answered.
 
Generally, I stay away from the forum as a whole simply because I don't have much to contribute and don't find much that's directly applicable to my current situation. I read a bit, file away what might come in handy, but I don't like to talk much simply because there are others better qualified than I am. I certainly don't have a problem with "members only" areas, though. The bills have to be paid, and I don't take it as a slight that I can't get in there and hobknob with the master smiths.

The one thing that I would absolutely love to see, and maybe it's impossible, is moderators putting the iron fist to lazy people asking the same basic questions over and over again. Maybe it's just my pet peeve, but when I see a "newbie" start a thread asking about how to get started making knives, I want to reach through the computer screen and choke the life out of them. The site is chock full of detailed information, but it requires a few hours of careful reading to sort through and prioritize. The internet as a whole is replete with knife-building tutorials! But noooooooooo, they just have to ask the same tired old questions, completely ignoring the stickies at the top of the pages. Wasn't it 1234567890 that had a standardized response complete with links for newbies asking the same questions asked just last week?

Am I being too rough? Seriously, though, if you don't have the wherewithal to do basic research, how are you going to have the gumption to knuckle down and make a knife? See a thread titled something like "How do I get started".... instant ban! Sometimes I feel like channelling Sam Kinison on stage....
 
NickWheeler said:
Spark-


Thank you for taking the time to post and for trying to help! :) :thumbup:


I think what most of us want is pretty simple--- for Shop Talk to be a forum where folks can come to talk shop. That would include anything two or more guys/gals would bs about while in the shop. I think the easiest way to keep that, is just to tweak the rules a bit rather than start new sub-forums.

However, I can see where a sub-forum just for WIP (work in progress) threads could be beneficial. I think the good ones would stay near the top, or even be made stickies, and the crappy ones would fade off into the darkness. This would make it easy for folks to browse the WIP threads.

Personally, I don't see any benefit to having restricted areas. The "Around the Grinder" sub-forum makes sense as a place for people to post things like "here's my new car" but having it restricted to paid members doesn't make sense to me. It just keeps traffic down to the point that threads die off quickly. It sure doesn't offer me anything special as a paid member.

If a maker wants to sell here, then having a paid membership is obviously a must... but there are some super highly skilled makers that used to post information here that were chased off because they didn't have a paid membership. Those guys were some of the select makers that draw in makers and collectors that DO BUY MEMBERSHIPS. If you take all the best authors' works out of a book store, who's going to go there to buy books???


So in a nutshell (IMHO):

No restricted areas other than the sales area.

No sub-forums other than possibly doing a WIP forum.

Shop Talk to include all stuff that knife makers, collectors, and would be knife makers would talk about while in the shop or at a hammer-in (within reason of course).


Thanks Spark!!! :)
Click to expand...

I completely agree with this. I think the problem with creating too many subforums is there would be confusion on where to put things. This whole mess started because the rules are too narrow. Instead of narrowing and defining more rules, we need to broaden and relax the rules. Shop Talk should be anything knife related including methods, supplies, tools, and business model. WIP section could be a place for new and experienced makers alike to give educational tutorials on their process. Around the grinder is only worth having if the paid restrictions are taken off. Honestly, that place is just depressing as it is. It's not a bad subforum because it lets us get personal about our lives among our friends here, but it is quite inactive. I am guilty, myself, because I rarely post or even read there. Perhaps it would expand if the restrictions were taken off. If it doesn't work then you could always put the restrictions back on.

I came to BF many years ago and have learned a lot here. I still come here multiple times a day but there's not nearly as much to learn anymore and I doubt its because I now know it all. I am very happy to support Bladeforums and think the $60 maker membership is an awesome deal.

So as has already been pointed out, my vote would be:

Around the Grinder to remove restrictions

Add a WIP Forum

"Shop Talk to include all stuff that knife makers, collectors, and would be knife makers would talk about while in the shop or at a hammer-in (within reason of course)."
 
Having a dedicated "Beginner" forum gives the moderators a place to "organize" the misplaced beginner posts. Organization is the primary issue here, and it's all the rampant post and posting for the sake of posting that's causing the need to police Shop Talk more heavily, and the subsequent animosity, IMHO.


We can get idealistic about self-policing if we want, and I agree that it would be "ideal", but realistically, it's not likely to work out.


I know first hand, that all the repetitive beginner stuff, is what keeps *alot* of very experienced makers away. Nick is one of the few exceptions to that rule, and we all appreciate his contribution, but I think with some structure, we could bring many more with as much or more to offer.


Just my 2c, take it for what it's worth, and feel free to disagree. Ask yourself though, in the pit at Blade, do the top end makers go around trying to find a group of new makers to hang out with and answer questions to, or do they congregate together, by themselves? It's not about elitism, it's about practicality, no matter what your trade our your skill level, we're all trying to get better, but the only way to do that is by yourself, or through people that are as good or better than you. None of us want to be constantly distracted by the guy that knows less than us incessantly, even though we may want to help as much as we can.

Separating the less advanced questions from the more, allows people to interact on whatever level they're willing to contribute, which I think ultimately, will encourage contribution, even if it doesn't feel egalitarian.
 
Everything old is new again:
http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php/1024718-Some-Changes-in-Shop-Talk

More discussion with Spark and others on this;
http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php/1022953-Shoptalk-forum-idea-suggestion


I think if that had happened nine months ago, this recent problem would not have happened. Most of what folks say they want was going to be in that change.

Spark - Maybe it is too late to go back and do it the way discussed in January, but I think that would work better.
 
My feelings about a "new maker" forum were exactly the same as weebus's... but Javan made some very good points.

While I think the guys that just come in and want all the answers in one post will always find their way here... having a section where Stacy could move those threads would certainly clean up the main page. The guys that are actually serious about things, will keep coming back.

So I hate to muddy up the water even more by changing my answer... but I'm starting to think a new maker section could help improve the forum. :foot: :)


Thanks! :)
 
NickWheeler said:
... I'm starting to think a new maker section could help improve the forum.
Click to expand...

It would make the new-guy questions easier to find, to focus on, and it would provide an uncluttered forum to list the stickies specifically applicable to them.

They might even begin to piggyback on each others questions, making it convenient to answer several at once.

It is also the logical "other side of the coin" to a Shop Talk that accepts all (experienced) knifemaker threads.
 
My only concern with having a new subforum for the new guys would be that few newer makers would find it, care to look for it, or know to look for it. That is evident in that new guys don't see the stickeys. Instead, they automatically post in the main forum and ignore the areas designated for them.

In that light, rather than creating a new subforum for the newer makers, perhaps there should be a new subforum for the experienced makers that addresses the more technical side of knifemaking. Since one would have to purposefully find it, it might not have the same question posted five times a week by the new guys.
 
Jason, whichever way we divide it -- if we do divide it between new and old makers -- the moderator will be moving threads. It will settle in. As I wrote, if the new guys have a place, those knifemakers who go there to help can focus better on that level of need, and the stickied info will be focused on their needs also.
 
This sounds great!! I'd love to see it happen. I for one would be all over it! :) I also think discussions like this is what makes BF great. I love this forum and most everyone that's a part of it!
 
NickWheeler said:
So in a nutshell (IMHO):

No restricted areas other than the sales area.

No sub-forums other than possibly doing a WIP forum.

Shop Talk to include all stuff that knife makers, collectors, and would be knife makers would talk about while in the shop or at a hammer-in (within reason of course).


Thanks Spark!!! :)
Click to expand...


I think Nick is spot on. "Around the grinder" can be renamed something like "off topic discussions" (or left alone) which would basically be a catch all for things you might talk about in a shop but not necessarily related to making a knife. Knife makers tend to like to talk with like minded folks about different things. For example someone can be in a guys shop and be like "hey I just bought or was thinking about buying (something totally not related to knife making) whadda ya think?" Or whatever else might come up in casual conversation. I get the fact that this is a business for you Spark but ATG being for paid members can't be the thing driving people to pay for a membership more often than not the newest post in there is a best a day old if not more. No one is really itching to pony up cash just for access to a sub forum on life support. Making it an "off topic" area open to anyone might clean up the general section and also encourage more activity among the members through discussion and people might say "wow this is really an awesome forum I'd like to support it just to hope it stays that way." A lot of makers here pay for the membership so they can sell, not so they can hope there is some activity in the "members only" forum.

I'll be honest soon as I saw the title of this thread I thought it was going to be a sub forum dedicated to forging. That's my .02 building off of Nick's suggestion.
 
I like the suggestions so far. I have a couple though.

1. The stickies have WAY too much information for a new member to take in. It should be split into "beginner" "intermediate" and "advanced."
2. Unless using the exchange, anyone with a JS status or higher should have all restrictions removed. They have WAY too much information to have to pay to share their knowledge.
3. I don't like the idea of a beginner subforum. Its too subjective to decide who and what topic goes where. We should have a simple rule to not respond to "how do I start" threads, and whoever sees it first, link the stickies.
 
What you guys are talking about is EXACTLY what we were trying to do in January.
"Knifemaking Techniques and Procedures"... an area for discussion of advanced techniques, HT, and materials.....post basic questions in Shop Talk." was the proposed sub-forum name.

This way the new folks will come right to shop talk, like always. The advanced questions, informational threads, WIPs, etc. will be in KTP. The mods can move the threads to the other forum if needed. Before long, everyone will just go where the info the need is. Both forums will be open to all members. ATG will stay the same, unless Spark has a reason to open it up to registered users.



All that would have to be done is change the name of the new sub-forum from Hammer and Tongs to "Knifemaking Techniques and Procedures"... an area for discussion of advanced techniques, HT, and materials.....post basic questions in Shop Talk." Esav and I can move any thread that need to be moved back to Shop Talk. I don't think letting it be like the "Wild West" is a good idea for Shop Talk, but I think that this split will allow a lot more leniency in ST.

Would you guys like this better?
 
I don't really care how we do it, but it would be nice if the "First stop" on the Knifemaker's area wasn't newbie central.. No offense intended to anyone.


As it is now, if you go to the main "Forum Index" page @ http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/forum.php in the "Knifemaker's Discussion Forum" field you see "Shop Talk" "Knifemaker's For Sale" and "Hosted Knifemaker's Forums"


At the very least, it would be super super nice to have the "Shop Talk" link, (call it whatever) go to the overall knifemaker's discussion area, instead of directly to Shop Talk, if we're going to host all the basic questions there.

Currently, I personally, always forget about "Around the Grinder" because it's buried under Shop Talk. It's like walking into a building, and finding yourself in a room full of people. Yes, there may be doors on the walls, but you're not bound to notice them.
 
having a section where Stacy could move those threads would certainly clean up the main page.
Click to expand...

Don't coddle to them. Don't move their posts. Ban them.

I know it might seem harsh, but why are the moderators bending over backwards to help people that refuse to show the least inclination to help themselves? How many threads on heat-treating lawnmower blades do we need to have before we simply axe folks? It's not like it's difficult to do a search on BF and find a hundred threads dedicated to lawnmowers. A minute's worth of work, and an hour's reading, and you know everything there is to know about working with "mystery" metal. But it just never stops.

How about those posts asking about the quality of an anvil? As a practicing smith, I understand some folks might be a bit skittish about spending good money on a big item like that. But that doesn't mean you can't glean info on how to judge the quality of an anvil from the ten thousand previous threads on the forum that discussed just such thing. Sure, go ahead and buy that piece of railroad track. Then lay in horizontal, bang on it for hours, and complain about how shoddy your blades are!

When you have a respected member of the forum actually go through the trouble of creating a detailed cut-n-paste response, you know you have far too many imbeciles asking the same questions over and over and over again. The problem is that nobody ever treats it like there's a problem. You'll see dozens of experienced smiths put their time in and answer the same question they answered last week and the week before that, trying to "encourage" new talent to enter the field.

This, in my opinion, is exactly the wrong thing to do. A new smith, or a potential new smith, should be taken to task for not doing their research, especially in this computer age. It might have been understandable before the internet when you had to rely on books from the library if you were lucky, but there's no excuse now.

I strongly discourage giving praise where it isn't deserved just to "encourage" new makers, and I think we do a disservice to the craft by not calling people out on the quality of their knives and the questions they ask.. If you can't do your research on the most basic things, what more is there to say? Do you wonder if that anvil you found is worth the asking price, well....... look at the ten thousand threads asking about anvils and their quality. I'm sure all of your questions have been answered a hundred times already!

You'll note that I'm following my own advise by not posting on this forum with any regularity. I might visit a lot and lurk a lot, reading the comments and learning how I can, but I don't posts senseless questions just to see my name in lights.
 
Last edited:
Leethal Cutlery said:
Searching for your answer before posting a thread is a rule in alot of other forums. Since I started hanging out in the shop talk forum things have changed a lot. It seems some people post just for the sake of posting. To me it dilutes all the good stuff. I may be alone in thinking that but I think it would be a good thing to have the newbies post there first knife wips and repetitive questions in their own forum. If no one answered them it would force them to search for themselves. I understand everyone's points, and what I'm saying is just my opinion.
Click to expand...

Searching ?

Heck, I can't get folks to read a link that I post in their thread

I suspect that Much of the behaviour we find irritating is related to users that post from cell phones.
 
Fletch Helical said:
I think Nick is spot on. "Around the grinder" can be renamed something like "off topic discussions" (or left alone) which would basically be a catch all for things you might talk about in a shop but not necessarily related to making a knife. Knife makers tend to like to talk with like minded folks about different things. For example someone can be in a guys shop and be like "hey I just bought or was thinking about buying (something totally not related to knife making) whadda ya think?" Or whatever else might come up in casual conversation. I get the fact that this is a business for you Spark but ATG being for paid members can't be the thing driving people to pay for a membership more often than not the newest post in there is a best a day old if not more. No one is really itching to pony up cash just for access to a sub forum on life support. Making it an "off topic" area open to anyone might clean up the general section and also encourage more activity among the members through discussion and people might say "wow this is really an awesome forum I'd like to support it just to hope it stays that way." A lot of makers here pay for the membership so they can sell, not so they can hope there is some activity in the "members only" forum.

I'll be honest soon as I saw the title of this thread I thought it was going to be a sub forum dedicated to forging. That's my .02 building off of Nick's suggestion.
Click to expand...

Spot on here folks, this is what I'd like to see as well. :)
 
[/QUOTE]Heck, I can't get folks to read a link that I post in their thread [/QUOTE]

When you have a respected member of the forum actually go through the trouble of creating a detailed cut-n-paste response
Click to expand...

I was talking about you, 12345678910! And if they are posting from their phones, that's no excuse. While a lot of the internet interfaces are problematic when using a phone or pad as a computer, there are still plenty of libraries with ILL capability. Not being able to post or search in no way inhibits your ability to read printed material.

And, to be honest, I seriously doubt there's a phone that won't allow you to read old threads. It might take time, but it's entirely possible; they just don't want to do it.
 
Banning people for coming to Bladeforums unprepared for the encyclopedia of rules and procedures here is no way to grow and thrive.

You may not even realize how many newbies don't even find their way to Shop Talk. We have to move them there from Tech Support or General Knife Discussion. That's what moderating is about on a normal day -- directing traffic, not writing summonses.

Personally, I would prefer to keep the Shop Talk name and forum for the basic function of serving Knifemakers. Around the Grinder can continue as is. Any new forums for newbies or WIPs might seem obscure at first, but the people who go there regularly will find their way.

If you're really interested, you can subscribe to those forums, and make Settings your first stop here, to see what's going on there, and on any threads you've subscribed to.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top