New Subforum: Hammer & Tongs

jawilder said:
I completely agree with this. I think the problem with creating too many subforums is there would be confusion on where to put things. This whole mess started because the rules are too narrow. Instead of narrowing and defining more rules, we need to broaden and relax the rules. Shop Talk should be anything knife related including methods, supplies, tools, and business model. WIP section could be a place for new and experienced makers alike to give educational tutorials on their process. Around the grinder is only worth having if the paid restrictions are taken off. Honestly, that place is just depressing as it is. It's not a bad subforum because it lets us get personal about our lives among our friends here, but it is quite inactive. I am guilty, myself, because I rarely post or even read there. Perhaps it would expand if the restrictions were taken off. If it doesn't work then you could always put the restrictions back on.

I came to BF many years ago and have learned a lot here. I still come here multiple times a day but there's not nearly as much to learn anymore and I doubt its because I now know it all. I am very happy to support Bladeforums and think the $60 maker membership is an awesome deal.

So as has already been pointed out, my vote would be:

Around the Grinder to remove restrictions

Add a WIP Forum

"Shop Talk to include all stuff that knife makers, collectors, and would be knife makers would talk about while in the shop or at a hammer-in (within reason of course)."
Click to expand...

I think Jason's post also really sums up my opinion on this.
1. Around the Grinder is a great concept... a place where makers can go to talk about non-knife-related stuff. We're a bit like a big disfunctional family here; there are folks that we wish Happy Birthday to, or pray for when they're sick, or say "that IS an ugly shop dog!"... these things don't need to be in the main Shop Talk forum, but they are nice to have to support a community. Sometimes moderators need to make the call and say "that post about deer in the back yard doesn't belong here.. let's move it to AtG". The problem is that AtG isn't accessible to everyone... so nobody goes there. I'd venture to say that unfettered access to AtG has NEVER inspired anybody to pony up for a membership.

2. Shop Talk should be less restrictive.

3. A beginner forum (in my opinion) is NOT the answer. It seems like a good idea, but it won't work. It's like having a school where the students hang out at one end of the building and teachers hang out at the other. Occasionally a kind-hearted teacher (like Stacy) may visit the student area... but most of the established makers will just blissfully dance around in their walled community where they never have to look at a newbie's crappy sketch and "critique my first design".:p
And then there are makers like myself who might not know "which area should I be posting in?"!? ;)

4. A WIP area might be nice... just for organization... but it's not really critical. I worry that I might not notice new WIPs if they are not on the Shop Talk main page, but I suppose I could adjust.

Again... Spark, Esav, Stacy, mods/supermods... I appreciate y'all listening to our little corner of this community.
Erin
 
The reason I suggest restriction removal for JS or higher (or equivalent value such as a graduate degree in metallurgy, full time machinist with ticket, or blacksmith with formal training) is that they will provide a wealth of information that will attract others to the forum. It would be like a sponsored athlete drawing attention to the site. They will bring in more than they get. Of course if they use the exchange, they should pay like everyone else.
 
I think we should just have one forum, most people are going to just look at one.

There are a handful of questions answered over and over, to the point where I have lost a bit of interest in Shoptalk myself. Maybe those "mystery steel" posts and the like could be moved to one thread covering the topic. Remove clutter and make more interesting...

There will be some off topic threads... if people are interested they will stay at the top of the page, if not they will naturally go to the bottom...
 
Just an observation here---

I see a LOT of guys that seem really frustrated with the "newbie posts" and saying how much they clutter up the forum.... The prevailing advice is always, "don't feed the ones that aren't willing to do some research, you're only encouraging them."

BUT- I just looked and there are two threads in the first couple pages here asking what is needed to get started. One has 13 posts and the other has 2 pages of replies!!!

Strikes me as someone saying "Don't feed the animals!" as they are handing the bear a cookie.

Wouldn't it make more sense to post Sam's link, and then lock the thread?



Back to the OP--- I'm kind of confused on what goes where now, and I have been trying to follow along here. "Around the grinder" has a stock removal sound, but it's just off topic stuff. Why not just, "Knife maker off topic"??? No matter what it's called--- it being a restricted area is just flat out dumb.

"Hammers and tongs" definitely makes me think of a forum for hot work. But it's not. So what is it? I've been here since 1999 and I'm not sure. What is a guy who comes here next week going to think?

So what is "Shop Talk" now???
 
While I understand the opposite argument for pushing for a Newbie zone, I still don't think it would work as well as people hope in actual implementation. I've seen similar happen on other forums in an attempt to do exactly what some folks here want to happen... to mitigate the amount of repetitive posts. Unfortunately, it just never works. Be it computer illiteracy, stupidity, or some lazy kid who generally has everything handed to him... the people that post these types of threads aren't the ones that will follow whatever new organizational system is implemented. All splitting it will do is create more work for the mods, more annoyance when people break the rules, and another place for us to click and read through. Plus, you're creating more subjectiveness that got us to this discussion in the first place... which was people disagreeing on whether posts should have been moved or not.

Stickies are hit or miss. They remind me of the "quizzes" in middle school that would pop up occasionally in English class... two sentences of directions at the top followed by 10-20 questions. Directions read something along the lines of "Don't answer any of the questions, just sign your name at the bottom of the paper. You have 5 minutes to complete this quiz." At the end of the 5 minutes, time was called... the majority of the class would still be chugging away at the questions crying about how they didn't get enough time. You can do all you want to provide as much information as you can, but some people still require things handed to them on a platter.

That said, I do think maybe the sticky thread(s) could be revamped to prevent some of these types of threads. Compiling a list of frequently asked questions (FAQ) in a sticky called something like "Thinking about making your first knife? Read this before posting" might catch a couple of those peoples' attention. Just so I'm not running my mouth, I'd be willing to help put something along those lines together. I know there are others that exist, but I do thing having a single, clean list of questions and answers (which can be modified and added to of course) might be a good thing. Something like 1234..'s response but in its own stickied thread.

While I disagree with VaughnT on dropping the banhammer on those who don't bother to read, I do see his point. If something along the lines of an FAQ sticky were posted and someone asked a question which was answered there, I think a graceful way of going about it would be to cut and paste a response that directs them towards the stickies to find their answer, and locking the thread. Having a WIP section could also cut down on some of the clutter by moving the "rate my design" type threads there. I do agree that overall people around here do seem to have an insane amount of patience with these types of things. While I think the willingness to pass on the craft is a fantastic thing, I do think the coddling can get a bit intense at times. I would be curious to see what percentage of those types continue to come around after their initial thread.

As for payment, I don't think any part of Shop Talk should be a pay to play community. Paying to use the exchange is one thing, as you are using the site as a service and means of making money... but restricting access to discussion areas impedes the free flow of information that makes the internet so great. It benefits nobody in the end to lock people out. Yes, some people aren't contributing money towards using the site, but having them around may be an asset which draws in others who may contribute.

Must say, it's fantastic seeing such a willingness to listen to the members by the mods. Really great to see.

Mike
 
Here's an example of a forum with a well developed novice area and equally developed journeyman area. There's no reason something similar couldn't be implemented here. Amazingly, nobody seems to have problems with the organization there as it's clearly expected to post novice questions in the novice area. Likewise, no one complains when a novice question gets moved to the novice area from the "Tried and True" area. I think the trick is calling them novices instead of newbies, beginners, or anything else that might be condescending.

My favorite part about it is the requirement of a first post in the "Welcome Center" introducing yourself. Also, the inclusion of a "My First. . ." could work very well as a place to post "my first slipjoint" or "my first tire iron forged into a hunter." Also, "new member reading lounge, required reading" would be a better name for the stickies.

http://homedistiller.org/forum/index.php
 
I like to do the occasional machining WIP thread. When I do, they seem to be pretty popular. My last knife WIP had over 16,000 views - that's not insignificant.

While my motivations are not purely altruistic (WIP threads are a form a promotion, which is a good thing and in my view is not a sin) the little bit of additional sales generated by the additional exposure doesn't offset the time it takes to create a well documented WIP and generally is not the reason I do them. I try to pack them full of easily digestible useful information that everybody can learn from. It is a lot of work to make a well documented WIP. I really don't want them stuck off in some WIP sub forum. :(
 
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