new superstainless zdp-189 rc 67

On the old chart they did not provide hardness:

CPM-06.jpg


But did you notice something very interesting?

NO MORE CPM S30V!
CPM 440V (CPM S60V) IS BACK!

http://www.crucibleservice.com/eselector/selectorindex/selectorindextitle.html

This is interesting table - http://www.crucibleservice.com/eselector/prodbyapp/stainless/stainlesschemtbl.html

Seems like 154CM noticible tougher then CPM S90V which was not a case on old chart.

Also I do not see CPM 154 and CPM D2.

Thanks, Vassili.
 
nozh2002 said:
Definition of stainless has nothing to do with rusting, if it is more then 17% of Cr, then it can be labeled as a stainless. This lead to confusion, however it is stainLESS not stainPROOF. There is H1 steel which does not rust (to some extent).

But if you compare this stainless with A2 for example, which rust almost instantly, you may notice difference.

Thanks, Vassili.
Click to expand...

I've used H-1 for over a year around salt water and have never had so much as surface staining occur. In fact, I let someone use it to cut some poly line out of a boat propeller just the other day, while the boat was in the water. I didn't even dry it off before clipping it to my pocket again and it didn't show any sign of rust whatsoever. I used the knife for almost 9 months on a commercial lobster boat, getting mud, herring brine (extremely high salt content), and seawater on it daily, and only cleaned it periodically and it never rusted. I'd say that is an alloy that is stainPROOF to a great extent.
 
nozh2002 said:
ZDP189 has 3% C which is more then in Iron Cast, but it also has 20% Cr - more then enough to create protective layer from casual rust, but if you will keep it 12 hours wet... This is common sence for all steel not ZDP189, wipe you blade after it was in the water.

Thanks, Vassili.
Click to expand...
But a lot of that 20% chromium is eaten up in carbides. Hitachi's own corrosion tables list 440C and ATS34 having better corrosion resistance.
 
nozh2002 said:
CPM S30V was American answer on CPM 440V which manufacturers deny to use because it is too good - check wear resistance it is 8 times less then CPM 440V so they save a lot on grinder supply. In this terms CPM S30V is worse what Crucible may offer and was made this way intentionaly for cuttlery industry. Of course this require heavy marketing, but in real CPM S30V far from super steel.

American metallurgy Crucible has steels better then ZDP189, like CPM S125V - but American knife manufacturers refuse to make knives out of it, because it is too good.

Japanese knife manufacturers have different business ethic and they do process ZDP189 even it is more wear resistant.

I think Crucible should start making laminated blades with supersteel in core and soft layers.

Thanks, Vassili.
Click to expand...
440V has very low toughness at higher hardnesses, it's a terrible steel. S30V is very good for high wear resistance IMO. I don't see any reason to go any higher in wear resistance, it just gets too brittle and difficult to sharpen.

I don't see why CPM S125V is "too good." Just because it has higher wear resistance doesn't mean it's better.

It would be great if Crucible made 420 laminated super steels. I would be interested in 420 laminated S30V.
 
i dont know much on the numbers with all this % of carbon ect ect., but i do know what i like. to be honest i prefer VG-10 to all other blade steels. now granted i have not used a ZDP-189 blade. im sure i will in the near future. I like VG-10 because it is hardened to a 60 or so Rockwell, but can take such a freaking sharp edge and hold it for a looong time. i honestly think its better than S30V. IMO of course.
 
I have a fixed blade with ZDP189 and ats55 laminated made by G-sakai. They say that they tested it for ten years and had no problem. No rust, no chipping. Not sure if that is true, but now they have fixed blades from pure zdp189.
 
in what way is CPM154V better than S30V?

ZDP is a bit of a rust magnet, sadly. but I find sharpening it easier than S30V.

so far, my favourite is still VG10 (in production folders)....cheaper, very sharp and easy to maintain. in customs, I like either CPM154V or S30V. I have wanted to try S90V for a long time but I'm not sure whether it can take a thin edge and how tough it would be...
 
Larrin said:
440V has very low toughness at higher hardnesses, it's a terrible steel. S30V is very good for high wear resistance IMO. I don't see any reason to go any higher in wear resistance, it just gets too brittle and difficult to sharpen.

I don't see why CPM S125V is "too good." Just because it has higher wear resistance doesn't mean it's better.

It would be great if Crucible made 420 laminated super steels. I would be interested in 420 laminated S30V.
Click to expand...

Never hear about let say Spyderco Military with CPM 440V being broken or something. So it just 8 times (or 6?) more wear resistant then CPN S30V and this is what kill it. As well as CPM S90V with same toughness as CPM S30V and 8 times more wear resistant are not in use now (while outperforming CPM S30V except may be in stain resistance).

I prefer CPM 440V over CPM S30V any time.

Never have problems with sharpening any steel, looking forward for one!

CPM S125V is better! It is not better, actually unacceptable for manufacturers, because it grinds out their belts or stones, but as a consumer I like to see one which can grind out grinding stone in my hand.

There is no point laminating CPM S30V.

Thanks, Vassili.
 
I sent my ZDP-189 Kershaw Leek back to them and had Kershaw replace the ZDP-189 blade with a Random Leek's S30V blade. Not only was the S30V sharper to begin with, but I could actually KEEP the edge as well and resharpen it myself.

I could not get the ZDP-189 edge sharp for the life of me... ridiculous! Now granted, I'm not a pro, and I don't have a Edge Pro either, but if you're not adept at sharpening, seek another metal.

-Ryan
 
nozh2002 said:
Never hear about let say Spyderco Military with CPM 440V being broken or something. So it just 8 times (or 6?) more wear resistant then CPN S30V and this is what kill it. As well as CPM S90V with same toughness as CPM S30V and 8 times more wear resistant are not in use now (while outperforming CPM S30V except may be in stain resistance).

I prefer CPM 440V over CPM S30V any time.

Never have problems with sharpening any steel, looking forward for one!

CPM S125V is better! It is not better, actually unacceptable for manufacturers, because it grinds out their belts or stones, but as a consumer I like to see one which can grind out grinding stone in my hand.

There is no point laminating CPM S30V.

Thanks, Vassili.
Click to expand...
440V does not have 8 times the wear resistance of S30V. Most 440V is heat treated to 56-58 Rc, which is why nobody has broken one. It's less tough than 440C. I dont' understand why you would like 440V better. S30V has lower carbide volume but more of that volume is vanadium, while most of the vanadium in 440V goes into chromium carbides. S90V would be a better choice than 440V since it has the same volume of carbide but again more of that is vanadium. Also S90V can maintain a fair toughness at 58-60 Rc.

S125V has high wear resistance, high attainable hardness, and low toughness. I would rather use S30V and use a low temper for greater toughness and ease of sharpening. Also, Crucible hasn't made very much S125V, and it's very expensive.

Of course there's a reason to laminate S30V, lots of people are switching to CPm-154 because of difficulty in finishing. Laminating would solve most of the problem of finishing it because of the softer, more easily finished 420 or other low carbon stainless.
 
nozh2002 said:
Here it is, free to buy (set encoding to Japanese):

http://www.hatta.co.jp/price.html

However, when I e-mail this guy, he suggested me first learn Japanese - nice people you may find everywhere...

I think this myth abut ZDP-189 being unavalable is luck of right contact in Japan. W&H had to buy knives regrind them and send back to Japan for HT (which is same as for ATS34). I think their supplier just take advantage of the fact that they do not have anybody in Japan... So finally customers had to pay for this. But in Japan you may easy order it ower web... If you learn Japanese... Like my friend Anton from Tokyo - he send me ZDP-189 blank, without any problems.

Thanks, Vassili.
Click to expand...
Maybe it is easier to buy one blank than it is to buy enough for a whole production run? :confused:
 
FliGuyRyan said:
I sent my ZDP-189 Kershaw Leek back to them and had Kershaw replace the ZDP-189 blade with a Random Leek's S30V blade. Not only was the S30V sharper to begin with, but I could actually KEEP the edge as well and resharpen it myself.

I could not get the ZDP-189 edge sharp for the life of me... ridiculous! Now granted, I'm not a pro, and I don't have a Edge Pro either, but if you're not adept at sharpening, seek another metal.

-Ryan
Click to expand...

Well it is not a big deal to have diamond sharpening system, it is more available now then old school which does not work any more.

So I rather recommend pro you or not to seek for diamond bench-stone and this will help with sharpening old steels also.

Thanks, Vassili.
 
Larrin said:
440V does not have 8 times the wear resistance of S30V. Most 440V is heat treated to 56-58 Rc, which is why nobody has broken one. It's less tough than 440C. I dont' understand why you would like 440V better. S30V has lower carbide volume but more of that volume is vanadium, while most of the vanadium in 440V goes into chromium carbides. S90V would be a better choice than 440V since it has the same volume of carbide but again more of that is vanadium. Also S90V can maintain a fair toughness at 58-60 Rc.

S125V has high wear resistance, high attainable hardness, and low toughness. I would rather use S30V and use a low temper for greater toughness and ease of sharpening. Also, Crucible hasn't made very much S125V, and it's very expensive.

Of course there's a reason to laminate S30V, lots of people are switching to CPm-154 because of difficulty in finishing. Laminating would solve most of the problem of finishing it because of the softer, more easily finished 420 or other low carbon stainless.
Click to expand...

You are talking form manufacturer point of view. The turns back to 154CM because it is easy to polish to make it look better, I am not too concern about this. If Crucible will do laminate I hope they will not waste their effort on cosmetic stuff and rather made really good core not CPM S30V.

I do not understand this - "most of the vanadium in 440V goes into chromium carbides". Vanadium Carbides is much harder then any other and this is why it is so wear resistant and require diamond sharpening. It is 6.5 times more wear resistant then CPM S30V which is just entry level CPM (like 420). So one way or another but CPM 440V is better then CPM S30V on my experience, but CPM S30v was way over promoted.

Thanks, Vassili.
 
nozh2002 said:
You are talking form manufacturer point of view. The turns back to 154CM because it is easy to polish to make it look better, I am not too concern about this. If Crucible will do laminate I hope they will not waste their effort on cosmetic stuff and rather made really good core not CPM S30V.

I do not understand this - "most of the vanadium in 440V goes into chromium carbides". Vanadium Carbides is much harder then any other and this is why it is so wear resistant and require diamond sharpening. It is 6.5 times more wear resistant then CPM S30V which is just entry level CPM (like 420). So one way or another but CPM 440V is better then CPM S30V on my experience, but CPM S30v was way over promoted.

Thanks, Vassili.
Click to expand...
Well if you don't want things to be easier on manufacturers than you don't want things to be more readily available.

440V has so much chromium that that the vanadium goes into the M23C6 and M3C7 carbides rather than forming MC carbides. S30V, with 4% vanadium, actually has more vanadium carbide than 440V/S60V. I don't know where you're getting your numbers from but S60V does not have 6.5 times the wear resistance of S30V. S30V has greater toughness, greater potential hardness, greater edge stability, and smaller carbides than S60V, not to mention S60V isn't made anymore. Between S30V and S90V all of your bases are covered, there is no reason to have S60V. I am not concerned about S30V being overpromoted, it is what it is, I don't have any grand visions about it doing something it's not. It has good toughness (for its level of wear resistance), very good corrosion resistance, good carbide size (again for its level of wear resistance while being stainless), and excellent wear resistance (for anyone who's thinking doesn't go beyond 10V and S125V). I'm not worried about chipping because I won't have problems with overheating in grinding and bad heat treatment that some large factories have had problems with.

For applications that will primarily slice with a coarse sharpening that requires corrosion resistance, there is no better choice.
 
440V/S60V, IIRC chipped too easily at high Rc, so Spyderco ran it lower. It rolled instead and since it was soo wear resistant, was a PITA to sharpen
 
If you use modern sharpening solution there is no difference is it CPM S90V or INFI. Both with same effort shawe hair like this:

hair-08.jpg


This argument confuse me, if some sharpening stone fail to sharpen knife, idea to throw away knife is bit strange. I rather throw away failing sharpening stone and get appropriate!

But I continue to hear - Hard to sharpen, hard to sharpen, hard to sharpen. Like some kind on mantra. I think right resolution will be learn how to sharpen with proper modern, cheap and widely available solutions. To me knife more important then sharpener - like Lanski which I do not touch after first use...

In general it is not steel failure that someone do not know how to sharpen properly and do not want to learn. In other words if you saying it is hard to sharpen, you should also say that you do not know how to sharpen or have wrong tool for this.

Thanks, Vassili.
 
Larrin said:
Well if you don't want things to be easier on manufacturers than you don't want things to be more readily available.

440V has so much chromium that that the vanadium goes into the M23C6 and M3C7 carbides rather than forming MC carbides. S30V, with 4% vanadium, actually has more vanadium carbide than 440V/S60V. I don't know where you're getting your numbers from but S60V does not have 6.5 times the wear resistance of S30V. S30V has greater toughness, greater potential hardness, greater edge stability, and smaller carbides than S60V, not to mention S60V isn't made anymore. Between S30V and S90V all of your bases are covered, there is no reason to have S60V. I am not concerned about S30V being overpromoted, it is what it is, I don't have any grand visions about it doing something it's not. It has good toughness (for its level of wear resistance), very good corrosion resistance, good carbide size (again for its level of wear resistance while being stainless), and excellent wear resistance (for anyone who's thinking doesn't go beyond 10V and S125V). I'm not worried about chipping because I won't have problems with overheating in grinding and bad heat treatment that some large factories have had problems with.

For applications that will primarily slice with a coarse sharpening that requires corrosion resistance, there is no better choice.
Click to expand...

Again this is different point. My "application" is best steel, which of course will be more expensive and need more attention then cheap Chinese knife with serration - which my friend have on hos kitchen for 5 years without sharpening. It is not about what is more proper for this or for that application. I am sure that best for application is relatively cheap and performing quite enough Buck 110 with 420HC! This is best solution in terms of balance of performance, cost, stain resistance, toughness, sharpening etc. For several generation they have this best, if not ideal solution.

But if you are entering Top Steel business, this kind of reasons should not be a matter. "Best" steel, by defenition can not be "good enogh" - best or not best. So in this terms CPm S90V is best and CPM S30V is entry level, with all properties of entry level steel - wear resistant enogh, tough enough, stainless enough and sharpenable enough... Other words good enough, but not the best!

So this is difference in points of view, otherwive agreed with you 100%. But I want best, not entry level.

Thanks, Vassili.
 
nozh2002 said:
In general it is not steel failure that someone do not know how to sharpen properly and do not want to learn. In other words if you saying it is hard to sharpen, you should also say that you do not know how to sharpen or have wrong tool for this. Thanks, Vassili.
Click to expand...

Vassili,

I agree. I don't have more difficulties to sharpen a zdp179 Cal.jr. on a diamond stone than i have to sharpen a carbonsteel slipjoint on an Arkansas stone. The proper tool, lightweight hand, slowness and patience, all is there.

dantzk.
 
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