new superstainless zdp-189 rc 67

I have a ZDP-189 endura which had a blueish black stain from cutting an orange. The knife was left to laying on a table and only after washing and drying the knife ,several hours later in my kitchen sink that I the blade stained.
And after several weeks later of storage in my desk drawer,I decide to look at it again and to my surprise find absoluetly no stains on the blade.Like,if it were magic trick.
 
S60v (440v) has been discontinued by Crucible some time ago because S30v is a better knife steel. In my own experience, S60v was very "gummy" to sharpen and I hated it.

Steels like S125v, which seems to basically be more vanadium carbides, are going in the wrong direction in my opinion. I value steels that have good all around performance. I think there is not enough emphasis on ease of sharpening and toughness. This is one of the reasons why everyone loves VG10 so much. It is relatively easy to sharpen, has high attainable sharpness, is tough, AND has great edge retention. S30v is not that difficult sharpen, but is needlessly difficult to sharpen especially compared to VG10 which holds its edge almost as long in my side by side testing, yet is much easier to sharpen. Now, which would you notice in your daily life, the easier sharpenability of VG10 or the extra edge retention that you most likely would not notice unless you were cutting side by side? The edge retention difference becomes even less noticable when you stop to sharpen the knife when it is pretty dull rather than very dull.

By the way, I have gotten S30v to whittle hair but it did take quite a bit of work. Using only sharpmaker white stones, S30v does not seem to get as sharp as other steels.
 
nozh2002 said:
If you use modern sharpening solution there is no difference is it CPM S90V or INFI. Both with same effort shawe hair like this:

This argument confuse me, if some sharpening stone fail to sharpen knife, idea to throw away knife is bit strange. I rather throw away failing sharpening stone and get appropriate!

But I continue to hear - Hard to sharpen, hard to sharpen, hard to sharpen. Like some kind on mantra. I think right resolution will be learn how to sharpen with proper modern, cheap and widely available solutions. To me knife more important then sharpener - like Lanski which I do not touch after first use...

In general it is not steel failure that someone do not know how to sharpen properly and do not want to learn. In other words if you saying it is hard to sharpen, you should also say that you do not know how to sharpen or have wrong tool for this.

Thanks, Vassili.
Click to expand...
Well yes you can get the steel that sharp. But steels with high edge stability are best at holding a hair whittling sharpness, not steels with high wear resistance. Wear resistance is just for long term slicing edge retention, which is way past hair whittling sharp.
 
Larrin said:
Well yes you can get the steel that sharp. But steels with high edge stability are best at holding a hair whittling sharpness, not steels with high wear resistance. Wear resistance is just for long term slicing edge retention, which is way past hair whittling sharp.
Click to expand...

Well, I was replaying to that hard to sharpen argument which is actually "It is hard to sharpen to me and my old non diamond sharpeners". I did not talk about edge retention - my point was it is as easy to sharpen as non premium steel and with proper tool you can have exceptional results.

Thanks, Vassili.
 
JoHnYKwSt said:
S60v (440v) has been discontinued by Crucible some time ago because S30v is a better knife steel. In my own experience, S60v was very "gummy" to sharpen and I hated it.

Steels like S125v, which seems to basically be more vanadium carbides, are going in the wrong direction in my opinion. I value steels that have good all around performance. I think there is not enough emphasis on ease of sharpening and toughness. This is one of the reasons why everyone loves VG10 so much. It is relatively easy to sharpen, has high attainable sharpness, is tough, AND has great edge retention. S30v is not that difficult sharpen, but is needlessly difficult to sharpen especially compared to VG10 which holds its edge almost as long in my side by side testing, yet is much easier to sharpen. Now, which would you notice in your daily life, the easier sharpenability of VG10 or the extra edge retention that you most likely would not notice unless you were cutting side by side? The edge retention difference becomes even less noticable when you stop to sharpen the knife when it is pretty dull rather than very dull.
Click to expand...

It was discontinued because they made much better steel CPM S90V, but knife industry refuse to use it, so they have to came up with this entry level - "better enough" steel to please knife manufacturers - cost of making knives for it lower then for CPM S60V because it is 6.5 times less wear resistant, having CPM S90V which better in toughness as well as in wear resistance then CPM S30V.

This is my conspiracy theory, of course.

Thanks, Vassili.

P.S.

JoHnYKwSt said:
By the way, I have gotten S30v to whittle hair but it did take quite a bit of work. Using only sharpmaker white stones, S30v does not seem to get as sharp as other steels.
Click to expand...

This is because it has vanadium carbides which harder then Aluminium oxides in ceramic, so to shrpen it you need to use something wich harder - diamonds.
 
I've been looking at ZDP-189 blades. The laminated ones seem like they would much better than the solid ones.

One of the posts I found on the easy rusting solid ZDP-189 is from a guy who said his solid ZDP-189 rusted in one day just from the sweat in his pocket. To make matters worse, he says he can't polish out the pits. He has photos in the link below.

A laminated blade would not have that problem.

http://spyderco.com/forums/showthread.php?t=29159
 
nozh2002 said:
It was discontinued because they made much better steel CPM S90V, but knife industry refuse to use it, so they have to came up with this entry level - "better enough" steel to please knife manufacturers - cost of making knives for it lower then for CPM S60V because it is 6.5 times less wear resistant, having CPM S90V which better in toughness as well as in wear resistance then CPM S30V.

This is my conspiracy theory, of course.

Thanks, Vassili.
Click to expand...
There are wear resistance numbers for 420V and 440V here: http://www.freepatentsonline.com/5936169.html?highlight=440v,440,m390,390&stemming=on There is no way that 440V has 6.5 times the wear resistance of S30V. Since S30V has more vanadium carbide and is generally at a higher hardness, it probably has greater wear resistance in both adhesive and abrasive wear.

S30V has greater toughness than S90V, not less. S90V of course isn't used much because of difficulty in grinding (like you said), and the very high cost of the steel.
 
CPM s90v according to Crucible chart is as tough as CPM s30v.

Thanks, Vassili.
 
This is strange - on old cart it is 8 times more wear resistant - on this one it is around twice. And with same toughness - little smaller. So I am confused, defenetly one of the charts wrong!

Thanks, Vassili.
 
nozh2002 said:
Here it is:

http://www.crucibleservice.com/datash/dsS30Vv5.pdf?CFID=1538014&CFTOKEN=14096716

check tool steel comparagraph.

Thanks, Vassili.
Click to expand...
I don't know why they made that chart, because all they did was match S90V's wear resistance with 9V. 9V has more vanadium carbide than S90V, and does better in adhesive wear resistance than S90V. They put a lot more weight into the adhesive wear resistance on those charts than abrasive wear resistance. They put more weight on adhesive wear resistance because PM grades with vanadium do particularly well in the crossed cylinder wear test but may not have an advantage in abrasive wear resistance. You can see the abrasive and adhesive wear numbers if you look at the patent for 420V (I already posted it up) and for 3V.

With some metallurgical knowledge you can learn to recognize when a chart is off or when the company is fibbing a little on their numbers/graphs.

Edit: As an example of those charts putting more weight on adhesive wear, D2 has abrasion resistance almost equal to 10V.
 
nozh2002 said:
This is because it has vanadium carbides which harder then Aluminium oxides in ceramic, so to shrpen it you need to use something wich harder - diamonds.
Click to expand...

Yes, you are right that is the reason. However, the point of the quote is that I do not need to break out the diamonds to get other steels as sharp.
 
I would rather give up some long term edge retention for better initial edge retention and greater ease of sharpening. That's how to do it if you like sharp edges.
 
JoHnYKwSt said:
Yes, you are right that is the reason. However, the point of the quote is that I do not need to break out the diamonds to get other steels as sharp.
Click to expand...

This is different types of diamonds... To me they are quite cheap and for sure pay off in no time.

11.5"x2.5" - $76.99 (most convinient, and I did not see other stones made this long)
6"x2" - $28.99
6"x2" double sided - $49.99 (you only need one of this)
MiniHone 2.5" x 0.75" - $6.99

This will work for qite a while, plus no mess with oil or water and they works way faster. It is not much more expensive then other. I this Spyderco ceramic bench-stones cos same - around $30 as well as waterstones etc - in the similar price range. I doubt this may cause some one to go to bankruptcy.

Thanks, Vassili.
 
Larrin said:
I would rather give up some long term edge retention for better initial edge retention and greater ease of sharpening. That's how to do it if you like sharp edges.
Click to expand...

I like sharp edge. I did this to hair:

hair-01.jpg


hair-03.jpg


And to my experience it is no difference is it CPM S90V or INFI or ATS-34.
If I like sharp edge - I learn how to sharpen and use the best.

Thanks, Vassili.
 
Vassili, how do you do that?? what blade? how did you sharpen? is it a polished or bitey edge?
 
Vassili, have you tried cutting some things and seeing which steels can still whittle hair? I'm not talking about how sharp you can get them.
 
Larrin said:
Vassili, have you tried cutting some things and seeing which steels can still whittle hair? I'm not talking about how sharp you can get them.
Click to expand...

Well, again we jump from "Hard to sharpen" to "Edge Retention" and back one more time. We talk about EdgeRetention then change subject to HerdToSharpen and again back to EdgeRetention. What it is? Some kind of public relation trick?

You just sad "give up some long term edge retention for better initial edge retention and greater ease of sharpening" - and I replay that for ease of sharpening you do not need to give up anything, just learn how to sharpen and use right tools.

2 spyken
http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=491916

Thanks, Vassili.
 
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