New US Ban on Sale of Elephant Ivory

First Poaching is deplorable IMO endangered or not...
Agree with Mark an "Executive Order" is not a law think that is up to the states to make it State law or the Legislature to make it federal law
Now what the heck do I do with all the stuff I bought 30 odd years ago?
 
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Rhinoknives1 said:
Mark,
You want the ivory trade to continue in the USA and I want it stopped. Poached or Legal as you would call it..

There is no reason that these animals should be slaughtered to the point of extinction during our life times for nothing more than their teeth when we have many materials that can be used instead. Even if we aren't the no2 buyer anymore we should lead in stopping all elephant hunting except in the case of too many large herds which I don't think they will have that game management problem for a long time if ever again.

There were no subsides for the Buggy whip industry when the automobile replaced the horse and I am sure that these fine smart merchants can find other materials to deal in.

Now, we do live in a democracy last time I checked and I want it shut down legally.

By the way. Most attorney's will tell you that you have a case as long as you are paying them.;)

I wish you luck and we can discuss knives and other topics in the future if you like?
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Your mind is closed and I understand that, it is your right and it is OK for you to feel the way you do. It is not OK for you to force your feelings on other people. Just because some people don't like to eat meat, it doesn't make it OK for them to force their feelings on other people no matter how righteous they think they are.

You are right, we live in a democracy, where we are presumed innocent until proven guilt, we have the right to our personal property when it is obtained legally and where our laws have to be passed lawfully and constitutionally.

You may not be aware but there are some countries that have solved the poaching problem, they have robust elephant herds and in fact they have to control the population of those herds because it has reached the carrying capacity of the habitat they occupy. It is the ivory from these herds, that I call legal, that these countries use in their successful conservation programs.

You are right, there is no reason why any animal should be slaughtered to near extinction. Where I think you are mistaken is on how to solve the problem.

I am happy to talk to you at any time about any subject, but I hope when we talk you are able to evaluate what I say with logic, reasoning and facts. I will do the same for you.

I also want to repeat, I do not deal in elephant ivory, the reason I am doing this is because I think it's the right thing to do. I do not believe any changes in laws here will change anything on the ground in Africa. Our administration and those of at least three other counties said the were crushing ivory to send a message. We need to do more than just send messages if we really want to stop poaching in Africa. The poachers don't care if we send massages, the smuggler don't care, the people using the ivory don't care, who is the message for. The message is for the voters who want to feel like we are doing something.
 
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Rhinoknives1 said:
Mark,
You want the ivory trade to continue in the USA and I want it stopped. Poached or Legal as you would call it..

There is no reason that these animals should be slaughtered to the point of extinction during our life times for nothing more than their teeth when we have many materials that can be used instead. Even if we aren't the no2 buyer anymore we should lead in stopping all elephant hunting except in the case of too many large herds which I don't think they will have that game management problem for a long time if ever again.

There were no subsides for the Buggy whip industry when the automobile replaced the horse and I am sure that these fine smart merchants can find other materials to deal in.

Now, we do live in a democracy last time I checked and I want it shut down legally.

By the way. Most attorney's will tell you that you have a case as long as you are paying them.;)

I wish you luck and we can discuss knives and other topics in the future if you like?
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In your scenario, buggy whip producers failed to change with the times and market of the day. They were not bankrupted with an inventory they couldn't exchange because of new laws and regulation (that didn't make reasonable concessions for their once legal inventory). I doubt it will be easy for many of 'these fine smart merchants' to move on from this if it becomes law. I personally don't care about the availability of elephant ivory as it's not a material I use. Nor do I mind the opinions of others unless they intend to harm the liberties of the lawful. So, while I'm not affected by this proposal, I do see potential for similar action against things I like such as knives.
This proposal will not curb demand or the problem of poaching. From an economics standpoint, this proposal can only worsen the problem. Unfortunately, real solutions are too complex for a 'political' solution or for the US to try to achieve alone.
FWIW, the US is a Constitutional Republic. Not that it matters much these days.

Brett
 
Doug C said:
Rhinoknives1,

Thailand and China are the two biggest buyers of elephant ivory.

There is what is called the "Gang of Eight".
The gang of eight includes Kenya, Tanzania and Uganda, where elephants are sourced; Malaysia, Vietnam and the Philippines, where ivory is smuggled and laundered; and Thailand and China, the two largest buyers. They're all at the center of a new UN report which found that elephant poaching has doubled in the last decade, and that the illegal ivory trade has tripled.

Doug
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Yes it is laundered in these other countries and then sent into China.
 
Mark Knapp said:
Your mind is closed and I understand that, it is your right and it is OK for you to feel the way you do. It is not OK for you to force your feelings on other people. Just because some people don't like to eat meat, it doesn't make it OK for them to force their feelings on other people no matter how righteous they think they are.

You are right, we live in a democracy, where we are presumed innocent until proven guilt, we have the right to our personal property when it is obtained legally and where our laws have to be passed lawfully and constitutionally.

You may not be aware but there are some countries that have solved the poaching problem, they have robust elephant herds and in fact they have to control the population of those herds because it has reached the carrying capacity of the habitat they occupy. It is the ivory from these herds, that I call legal, that these countries use in their successful conservation programs.

You are right, there is no reason why any animal should be slaughtered to near extinction. Where I think you are mistaken is on how to solve the problem.

I am happy to talk to you at any time about any subject, but I hope when we talk you are able to evaluate what I say with logic, reasoning and facts. I will do the same for you.

I also want to repeat, I do not deal in elephant ivory, the reason I am doing this is because I think it's the right thing to do. I do not believe any changes in laws here will change anything on the ground in Africa. Our administration and those of at least three other counties said the were crushing ivory to send a message. We need to do more than just send messages if we really want to stop poaching in Africa. The poachers don't care if we send massages, the smuggler don't care, the people using the ivory don't care, who is the message for. The message is for the voters who want to feel like we are doing something.
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My mind isn't anymore closed that your's my pal!
I have heard Nugent and other ad naseum on how well the countries in Africa that sell hunting tags for elephants and cull herds for "legal ivory etc are doing. Unless you have had your boots on the ground in all of these different countries you have the same access to information that I do regarding this topic of discussion. And I take their statistics with a large grain of salt just like you question the one elephant poached every 15 minutes number.

So even if this ivory is taken legally, none of it can ever legally be brought into this country and feeding the supply only makes it easier for poachers to get their blood tusks sold and smuggled into country where there is a demand..

At the risk of an infraction on myself I will say that this current administration could screw up a wet dream and I don't like anything done by decree by the current anointed one.

Its early in this process and I believe any real changes on the Ban and new laws will have to be voted on by congress which unfortunately I don't have a lot of faith in them anymore ether. Legal merchants that own pre-ban ivory should be able to continue to sell it under a watchful eye or the government should buy up their remaining stock.

If you dig around here you will find a seller of ivory that was banned from here maybe a year or two back as well as other sites for questionable practices & paper work. I don't care if we are No 2 or No 5 there is poached ivory in this country and their should be zero tolerance for it.

The message that I am sending is in my humble way, is with an organization that saves Orphan, injured young elephants and my name sake Rhinos. https://www.sheldrickwildlifetrust.org Solio is an orphaned Rhino that my wife and I sponsor along with other animals and other projects.

One of the better solutions I think is to increase the amount of photo safaris so that the animals become a protected asset like is being done in Kenya, Tanzania and a few other countries.

On my bucket list is a trip for my wife and I to Kenya etc to see the large game herds Elephants and Rhinos and I won't be bringing a rifle.

"FWIW, the US is a Constitutional Republic. Not that it matters much these days.

Brett"
I am aware of that technicality. I use to use the term Representative Republic. But I don't think that really applies anymore ether.

I have some knives to get finished. See you guys later.
 
I want to make one comment and that is it always seems that some folks feel EVERYONE should be punished for the actions of a (very) few....
 
Mark, thank you for all your work on doing this research and keeping us informed. This is an important issue and it won't stop here with elephant ivory. Things are never taken from us in huge decisive chunks, rather it's always little bits here and there, trying to slip by unnoticed.

Thanks for being the voice of reason and presenting researched facts instead of spouting conjecture and pushing personal agendas. :thumbup:

Let me know when and how to help.
 
Rhinoknives1 said:
My mind isn't anymore closed that your's my pal!
I have heard Nugent and other ad naseum on how well the countries in Africa that sell hunting tags for elephants and cull herds for "legal ivory etc are doing. Unless you have had your boots on the ground in all of these different countries you have the same access to information that I do regarding this topic of discussion. And I take their statistics with a large grain of salt just like you question the one elephant poached every 15 minutes number.

So even if this ivory is taken legally, none of it can ever legally be brought into this country and feeding the supply only makes it easier for poachers to get their blood tusks sold and smuggled into country where there is a demand..

At the risk of an infraction on myself I will say that this current administration could screw up a wet dream and I don't like anything done by decree by the current anointed one.

Its early in this process and I believe any real changes on the Ban and new laws will have to be voted on by congress which unfortunately I don't have a lot of faith in them anymore ether. Legal merchants that own pre-ban ivory should be able to continue to sell it under a watchful eye or the government should buy up their remaining stock.

If you dig around here you will find a seller of ivory that was banned from here maybe a year or two back as well as other sites for questionable practices & paper work. I don't care if we are No 2 or No 5 there is poached ivory in this country and their should be zero tolerance for it.

The message that I am sending is in my humble way, is with an organization that saves Orphan, injured young elephants and my name sake Rhinos. https://www.sheldrickwildlifetrust.org Solio is an orphaned Rhino that my wife and I sponsor along with other animals and other projects.

One of the better solutions I think is to increase the amount of photo safaris so that the animals become a protected asset like is being done in Kenya, Tanzania and a few other countries.

On my bucket list is a trip for my wife and I to Kenya etc to see the large game herds Elephants and Rhinos and I won't be bringing a rifle.

"FWIW, the US is a Constitutional Republic. Not that it matters much these days.

Brett"
I am aware of that technicality. I use to use the term Representative Republic. But I don't think that really applies anymore ether.

I have some knives to get finished. See you guys later.
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I think that, since I am in the ivory business (fossil walrus and mammoth mostly), have obtained CITES permits, and federal import licenses, have a good relationship with a chief USF&W Service Officer whom I speak with regularly about these maters and have hired a lawyer on numerous occasions to understand the law and make sure I don't do the wrong thing (not to get me out of trouble) I don't have to rely on sources like Ted Nugent to get my information. I may have a better grasp of the situation than you do. I don't count Ted Nugent as a very good spokesman for the sportsman side of this issue, but would take his help if I could get it. That having been said, I think you are still entitled to your opinion.

My mind is not closed, I have given you reasons why I hold the position I do, I have sited my references and given you statistics and facts to back up my position. Your opinions are backed up with your feelings only. If you can give me some evidence to support your arguments, you might be able to sway me.

I did not say I doubted the "one elephant every 15 minutes" I said, if it is true, the US could not possibly be the second largest importer of poached ivory because 6 tons in 25 years is no where close to the amount it would take to be the second largest importer. I also stated that most of that 6 tons of ivory was from other sources than poached ivory, I know this from personal experience and talking with USF&W officials.

You are right, none of the legal ivory sold in Africa is supposed to come to the US. It is some of that legal ivory that uninformed people tried to bring home that ended up in the 6 tons that the US confiscated. As I said, not supposed to come here but not part of the poaching problem. Any business man or economist can tell you if the supply of any commodity goes up, the demand and the price goes down. If you limit the supply the demand and the price goes up. Availability of legal ivory lessens the demand for poached ivory, it does not increase it as you say.

You and I agree, legal merchants should be able to continue under a watchful eye. That's the way it's done now, and it is a departure from your statement in an earlier post where you stated that you did not want trade in ivory to continue. I was wrong, your mind is not as closed as I thought.

I think the seller you are talking about was the one that was selling questionable walrus ivory not elephant ivory. I know about the case well, I counseled him often to straighten up his act so that he would not get into trouble and because it was just the wrong thing to do. I know of no one anywhere in the U.S. that was dealing in questionable elephant ivory. Can you show me some documented cases? I think the problem is a lot smaller than you suspect. At least that's what I can tell from the evidence. It's the blurring of these lines that makes this whole issue problematic. I agree with you, there should be zero tolerance for poached ivory in this country, we should find out who they are and get them. Not make everyone with a legal piece of ivory a criminal, and make every piece of pre-ban ivory illegal.

I like photo safaris, My wife has been on one in Tanzania and brought home some wonderful photos. It is from her that I get some of my insight. You are entitled to choose what ever you like to carry on your safari, you are not entitled to dictate to others what they can carry, nor can you dictate what they do with their ivory if they are successful.

Incidentally, you commented on how much I should believe of what my attorney says, even though you don't know about our relationship. I guess the same could said about the people you send your money to that rescue orphan animals. I am sure they are doing commendable work but how much, really, of what they say can you believe.

Nice talking with you, I have some knives to work on too, and some ivory to sell.:D:D

Regards, Mark
 
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Rhinoknives1 said:
My mind isn't anymore closed that your's my pal!
I have heard Nugent and other ad naseum on how well the countries in Africa that sell hunting tags for elephants and cull herds for "legal ivory etc are doing. Unless you have had your boots on the ground in all of these different countries you have the same access to information that I do regarding this topic of discussion. And I take their statistics with a large grain of salt just like you question the one elephant poached every 15 minutes number.

So even if this ivory is taken legally, none of it can ever legally be brought into this country and feeding the supply only makes it easier for poachers to get their blood tusks sold and smuggled into country where there is a demand..

At the risk of an infraction on myself I will say that this current administration could screw up a wet dream and I don't like anything done by decree by the current anointed one.

Its early in this process and I believe any real changes on the Ban and new laws will have to be voted on by congress which unfortunately I don't have a lot of faith in them anymore ether. Legal merchants that own pre-ban ivory should be able to continue to sell it under a watchful eye or the government should buy up their remaining stock.

If you dig around here you will find a seller of ivory that was banned from here maybe a year or two back as well as other sites for questionable practices & paper work. I don't care if we are No 2 or No 5 there is poached ivory in this country and their should be zero tolerance for it.

The message that I am sending is in my humble way, is with an organization that saves Orphan, injured young elephants and my name sake Rhinos. https://www.sheldrickwildlifetrust.org Solio is an orphaned Rhino that my wife and I sponsor along with other animals and other projects.

One of the better solutions I think is to increase the amount of photo safaris so that the animals become a protected asset like is being done in Kenya, Tanzania and a few other countries.

On my bucket list is a trip for my wife and I to Kenya etc to see the large game herds Elephants and Rhinos and I won't be bringing a rifle.

"FWIW, the US is a Constitutional Republic. Not that it matters much these days.

Brett"
I am aware of that technicality. I use to use the term Representative Republic. But I don't think that really applies anymore ether.

I have some knives to get finished. See you guys later.
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I have had my boots there and you sir do not know what you are talking about

Hunters and sportsman are the real heros saving elephants

Not people adopting an elephant

Unless you dropped 50 grand you did nothing but make yourself feel better

It is a fact elephant herds that are doing well are in areas that allow legal harvest of such

You are wrong sport hunters are still allowed to bring legally harvested cities permitted elephant tusks into the country

Poaching must be attacked and the funds to do so do not come from animal rights wackos they come from guys writing big checks

These pics are not from a park but of elephants in hunting areas
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94d0f538adbb301c0223190eb8543120.jpg


431a73b21ea3e78772037eb3881ae683.jpg


Again I have NO interest in hunting an elephant but I have been there enough to know that the only salvation these magnificent beasts have is thru educating people on the merits of sport hunting and REAL conservation thru proper game management

This picture always get um

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This elephant feed an entire village and put funds into the system to protect many more elephants

Unless an animal has worth in Africa it will seize to exist ....... This is the truth and the only truth
 
BTW I do not collect ivory knives and truly care more for the animals than the ivory

I just have been around enough to SEE what is happening
 
Rhinoknives1 said:
Unless you have had your boots on the ground in all of these different countries...

...there should be zero tolerance for it.

One of the better solutions I think is to increase the amount of photo safaris so that the animals become a protected asset like is being done in Kenya, Tanzania and a few other countries.
Click to expand...

I have lived "on the ground." Not in ALL of the countries where poaching is a problem, but enough to have talked to local enforcement (in the local language!) and to understand some of the issues. I agree there should be zero tolerance for poaching, and I can pretty much guarantee that by "zero tolerance" I mean a lot more than you'd think; most poachers only understand death, and it's the only deterrent that works.

What has helped poaching in Kenya was ruthless enforcement by the police and military, which occurred because the government realized that they needed tourist dollars, which wouldn't come without elephants. This enforcement usually ends up with poachers dead. The ones who lived got the message and started robbing ships off the coast; almost all of the Kenyan (and a lot of Tanzanian) poachers are Somali. Your solution worked somewhat in Kenya (sort of, it was really backwards to what you said: the elephants died so people STOPPED coming), but only because there is more money for Kenya in live elephants than dead ones, and the government is willing to take extreme measures to see that it stays that way. This is in part because of the Somali thing: even if they're Kenyan Somalis, they're still largely seen as both foreigners and troublemakers, and it's easier for the government to deal with them precipitously as a result.

In Tanzania the government has a less will, and poaching is getting worse. In the case of TZ, the ivory is smuggled largely by Burundians. Remember the big genocide in Rwanda? When the bad folks were kicked out of Rwanda they kicked off civil wars in Burundi and the DRC. Hundreds of thousands of refugees went to Tanzania and stayed in HUGE camps for more than a decade. A lot of desperate people with connections to a lot of really bad people still in Burundi are largely responsible for ivory poaching and smuggling. THe elephants are killed by local people because none of the benefits of having live elephants around really accrue to them, and the tusks go out through the camps to Burundi and on to China or wherever. The Kenyan solution would work in Tanzania, but, again, the will is lacking. This is partly because the poachers are smart enough to stay away from where most of the tourists go, so even if most of the rest of the elephants are gone the money will still flow. It's also because the poachers are more often local, and the government doesn't want to be seen killing poor farmers.

There aren't many elephants left in Uganda.

In other parts of Africa where poaching is the worst (Central African Republic, for example) there simply isn't enough of a government to make a dent either way, and they have bigger problems to deal with

None of these activities are affected in any way by a total US ban. There is demand for ivory here, but there is almost ZERO demand for illegal ivory. The current ivory laws are really pretty good, and I'd love to see more money and manpower going to enforce them. More laws (or non-laws, as in the current case), will only harm those who already abide by them, since they're the ones scrupulous enough to document their activities.

"On the ground," there is really only one solution, but as a nation we don't care enough about African PEOPLE to use miliary force when we should, much less elephants. Then again, elephants probably make better campaign posters, so maybe we would.

I support any efforts to end poaching that might actually be helpful. I'd be happy if no elephant ever again died of anything but natural causes or necessary and intelligently managed culling for population control. Nothing in this recent executive order will do anything to effectively further this goal, so I'm with Mark here.
 
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BTW

I have talked to poachers

I have talked to game scouts that fight the poachers which all could be from the same village

How do you change a local poacher into an ex poacher

Employ him in a hunting camp

Give him meat to feed his family

How do you stop a farmer from night shooting young and old elephants raiding his crops and making it impossible to feed his family

Pay him to protect the elephants and give them safe grounds to live on. The way you pay him is from legally harvested elephants on his land

This is simple

Take the Disney BS out of the equation
 
Travis Fry said:
This is absolutely, totally, and unequivocally correct.
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Thank you Travis

I wish people could see past their personal beliefs on what is right and wrong and do what is best for the animals on a whole

I would never shoot an elephant but I can not ignore just because I feel a certain way what is the truth and the salvation for a creature
 
Joe you are 100% correct that hunting and tourism is the only viable serious cash competition to poaching in many African countries. It is only by managing Elephants as a resource that they can be protected and maintained for the future.

I am always amazed at peoples re-action when I tell them that for years South Africa culled Elephant herds to keep the population manageable. South Africa has one of the largest stocks of legal Ivory (and Rhino horn) in the world. All sitting and waiting to be sold so the money can be put back into conservation and research. However political correctness and a complete refusal to see the reality of the problem prevents the sale.

However none of this has any bearing on the proposed ban in the US.
Preventing people from selling ivory items from animals long dead is pointless. All you will do is drive the sales underground and make criminals out of innocent people.

There are thousands of tusks languishing in US collections from the past 100 years of African Safaris. Making these illegal to sell in the US does nothing to prevent current poaching of Elephants in Africa. Indeed it may exacerbate the problem.
 
Steven65 said:
Joe you are 100% correct that hunting and tourism is the only viable serious cash competition to poaching in many African countries. It is only by managing Elephants as a resource that they can be protected and maintained for the future.

I am always amazed at peoples re-action when I tell them that for years South Africa culled Elephant herds to keep the population manageable. South Africa has one of the largest stocks of legal Ivory (and Rhino horn) in the world. All sitting and waiting to be sold so the money can be put back into conservation and research. However political correctness and a complete refusal to see the reality of the problem prevents the sale.

However none of this has any bearing on the proposed ban in the US.
Preventing people from selling ivory items from animals long dead is pointless. All you will do is drive the sales underground and make criminals out of innocent people.

There are thousands of tusks languishing in US collections from the past 100 years of African Safaris. Making these illegal to sell in the US does nothing to prevent current poaching of Elephants in Africa. Indeed it may exacerbate the problem.
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I guess you would know with your boots being firmly on the ground my brother :)

I hope you are still coming to Atlanta this year
 
Joe,

Thanks for shedding some of your highly informative and realistic light on this very serious issue. :thumbup:
You too, Steven65. :)

Doug
 
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