New US Ban on Sale of Elephant Ivory

betzner said:
You neglect to mention that in more than one US state, the sale of any elephant ivory product is illegal, California being one example (penal code 653o). In fact, as I recall, the law reads something like "possession with intent to sell".
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My apologies. I was simply stating the info as published on the Fish And Wildlife site.
 
Mark-

I feel you and others have made this thread much more than it began. I have learned much and thank you for your contributions. I commend you for your efforts and thanks for including your conversation with WildAid. I'm fairly certain I have at various points in my life "stood firmly" for what I felt was right, regardless of the problems my inability to compromise would/could cause. As I get a bit older and hopefully gain more perspective, I begin seeing what can be lost by doing so and better yet, what can be gained by working together. It seems so common anymore for an individual or group to hold tightly at all costs to whatever the cause or issue at hand is. And don't get me wrong-there are times where without standing firm, we lose more than we would otherwise gain.

But, I very much appreciate your willingness here to help and educate wherever you can. I feel this is a great example of how folks could try to help by working with a group they would otherwise make smart remarks about. Just as some may have particularly negative feelings about organizations such as the NRA, SCI, and others, the opposite side would have the same feelings towards WildAid and label them with negative names.

Something tells me, if more folks making decisions in all kinds of venues shared some of your traits of looking beyond the differences to the ideals that are shared, much could be done. Thanks for making a positive impact, or at least giving it your best ;).

Respectfully,

Jeremy
 
ron_m80 said:
Wildaid's website clearly stated, "When the buying stops, so can the killing." I commend you for reaching out to them. But it sounds like they don't like your business at all.
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I know that, I think it's actually the name of their' campaign in China, I'm an eternal optimist, and hoped we could come together. It's beginning to look dismal to me.
 
Mark,
Thanks for trying again to work with the wild aid folks. Sorry you were not any more successful the second time around and hopefully people can learn to work together for come causes.
Don't lose faith!;)
 
I hope to be talking on the phone today with Wildaid. In the mean time, both the African Wildlife Foundation and Save The Elephants, both seem to be good organizations. They look like they are working on the ground in Africa to combat poaching there without advocating for the restriction of legal Ivory in the US. I will check their financials and make sure the money is actually being used for what they say. I will keep you posted.
 
Mark,I do like the way you handle this. You maintain a positive attitude and research before you speak.
Gary
 
betzner said:
I would argue that the majority of lower-48 makers and collectors do not have their elephant ivory material papered.
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The above assertion is at the core of this new legislation, the goal of which is to prevent the unlawful killing of elephants, which are endangered. If the "majority of lower-48 makers do not have their elephant ivory material papered," then wouldn't it be conceivable that there's a chance some of it could have been sourced from poachers?

It's not good enough just to assume everything is on the up and up when it comes to ivory.

I understand that there are some who stand to lose considerable sums invested to acquire ivory and build knives with ivory handles. But the onus was already on them to verify the origins of the ivory they bought. Why would you not protect your investment by verifying the source? It's just a no-brainer.

Buying and possessing elephant ivory should not be a basic human right if it leads to the decimation of another species. Unfortunately, that's exactly what has been happening. Hence the law.

EDIT: The "guilty until proven innocent" approach to this new law, however, is not cool. I can understand why people are upset about that.
 
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I am looking for donations of two pieces of documented elephant ivory for knife corroborations for fund raising, anyone got any ideas?
 
Mark Knapp said:
A couple of things here, first, Ted is not their' front man. He is one of three that allows Kniferights to use his image and a quote. He is working with Kniferights to help protect your rights, along with the NRA and The Safari Club.

No one is asking you to join knife rights we are asking you to help us find a way to help us preserve elephants and the things we hold dear in the USA. I'm not talking about ivory handled knives, I'm talking about three basic fundamentals in American law. In case you haven't been following along, they are, the presumption of innocence until proven guilty and the fifth amendment. Here it is so you don't have to look it up.

"The Amendment requires that felonies be tried only upon indictment by a grand jury; the Grand Jury Clause is one of the few provisions of the Bill of Rights not held to have been incorporated to the states, most of which have replaced grand juries. The Amendment also provides several trial protections, including the right against self-incrimination (held to also apply to custodial interrogations and before most government bodies) as well as the right to be tried only once ("double jeopardy") in federal court for the same offense. The Amendment also has a Due Process Clause (similar to the one in the 14th Amendment) as well as an implied equal protection requirement (Bolling v. Sharpe). Finally, the Amendment requires that the power of eminent domain be coupled with "just compensation" for those whose property is taken."

If you still can't work with us because we are working with Kniferights, then do something, join Wildaid.

People will find a million reasons to not do anything, if at the end, we have no elephants and we give up all the things I mentioned above because you (and others) did nothing, it is our fault. We get the government we deserve and we will only have the flora and fauna we care enough about to keep.

I would rather people use this thread to talk about what they are going to do instead of what they ain't gunna do.
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Very well said.
 
NeoClassic said:
The above assertion is at the core of this new legislation, the goal of which is to prevent the unlawful killing of elephants, which are endangered. If the "majority of lower-48 makers do not have their elephant ivory material papered," then wouldn't it be conceivable that there's a chance some of it could have been sourced from poachers?

It's not good enough just to assume everything is on the up and up when it comes to ivory.

I understand that there are some who stand to lose considerable sums invested to acquire ivory and build knives with ivory handles. But the onus was already on them to verify the origins of the ivory they bought. Why would you not protect your investment by verifying the source? It's just a no-brainer.

And because of that, the uproar over this law baffles me. Buying and possessing elephant ivory should not be a basic human right if it leads to the decimation of another species. Unfortunately, that's exactly what has been happening. Hence the law.
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I think you have probably not read very much of the information in this thread, otherwise your statement makes a lot of sense. Until 1989 there was no documentation required for ivory. We are talking about all the ivory that came to the US before 1989, where is the documentation supposed to come from. Certainly any that came after 1989 should have had documentation but do you have paperwork on stuff you bought 25 years ago. Suppose someone passed a law that said all your guns (or pick an item) are now illegal (or illegal to sell) unless you can show a bill of sale or proof of origin? How many of your personal belongings would become valueless.

I think I have already demonstrated throughout this thread, pretty convincingly, that the US is not part of the poaching problem in Africa today, and has not been for some time. You may not agree.
 
You can get a PDF of our cover story on the ivory ban from the April edition of KNIFE WORLD right here:
http://www.knifeworld.com
It presents an overview of where I think things stand now (we also ran an article last month, that included more background information.)

Thanks to Mark Knapp who is doing a great job spreading the word with this thread. And a special tip of the hat to the chap who found the quote about the illegal ivory trade in the US being insignificant, in the 2012 USFWS Fact sheet -- that was a gem I included in the article.

Mark Zalesky
Editor
Knife World magazine
 
Mark D. Zalesky said:
You can get a PDF of our cover story on the ivory ban from the April edition of KNIFE WORLD right here:
http://www.knifeworld.com
It presents an overview of where I think things stand now (we also ran an article last month, that included more background information.)
Mark Zalesky
Editor
Knife World magazine
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Mark that is a brilliant article. Well done. I urge all US knife enthusiasts to read it and to disseminate it far and wide amongst our community.

I hope you don't mind if I quote two excellent paragraphs from your article………..

Knife World Vol. 40 No. 4 April 2014

In a practical sense, the most significant effect of this ban will be to criminalize collectors, craftsmen and other ordinary people by retroactively targeting ivory and ivory-containing objects formerly purchased through legal means, and banning or greatly restricting their sale which to this point has been completely legal. In short, it forces honest ivory owners to either keep, destroy, or dispose of these objects – or to attempt to sell them illegally.

A major shift in this proposal is that the enforcing agency will no longer have to prove that the ivory in question was illegally acquired – the burden of proof is now upon the owner, rather than the enforcing agency.Unlike the innocent-until-proven- guilty approach the U.S. legal system takes with most civil and criminal cases, the owners of objects containing ivory are now guilty-until-proven-innocent. That alone ought to be enough to convey the seriousness of the situation.
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Mike Quesenberry said:
I'll donate two 5x13/4x1/4" thick slabs that were purchased from David Warther along with documentation.
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Thank you Mike, I appreciate it, I will line Up some knife makers, and let you know where to send them. Ide like to spread this around some so no one carries too much of the burden. Thanks again, me.
 
Mark D. Zalesky said:
You can get a PDF of our cover story on the ivory ban from the April edition of KNIFE WORLD right here:
http://www.knifeworld.com
It presents an overview of where I think things stand now (we also ran an article last month, that included more background information.)

Thanks to Mark Knapp who is doing a great job spreading the word with this thread. And a special tip of the hat to the chap who found the quote about the illegal ivory trade in the US being insignificant, in the 2012 USFWS Fact sheet -- that was a gem I included in the article.

Mark Zalesky
Editor
Knife World magazine
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Thanks for the fine article Mark
 
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