NGK and Benchmade

Short term, I suspect BM may gain.

But in the long term, the internet is where shopping is going (for non try-on type goods, anyway - and that isn't a sure thing).

If prices were to rise to the MSRP, BM will surely be hurtin' IMO.

Sad, really. Like BM, but they've been lettin' me down a bit of late.

Sad.
 
Two thoughts, but first I want to celebrate NG so, before everyone who reads this keep me honest and hold me to it, NG I owe you 1/2 a beer.:) Seriously, you are all right, best of the best.

Thought #1: Manufacturers will follow the OPEC model if they can. Control supply and you control prices. Thereby profit margins are controlled. Of course, they need a product that not everyone can produce. Hasn't Strider been on this program from the jump? Is anyone old enough to remember discount gas stations/service stations on every corner? Remember price wars? The existing service stations are conglomerate owned. Independents are SOL/DOA. You all know what happened to prices and profits.

Thought#2: What if discount cutlery vendors have two feet in the grave, right dang now (today), when it comes to selling top quality branded cutlery. Perhaps we are on the edge of the beginning of the end of discounters selling premium brands. If so then buy hearty mates. MSR prices could be just around the corner, every corner.

Best,

oregon

PS: Heat wave here today, however, and strangely, the Buck 882's are still too cool for school.

PPS: Isn't internet shopping a phenomenon largely restricted to the west? Don't most folks east of the Rockies p/u a phone or haul their buns to buy stuff? Just a guess.
 
oregon said:
PPS: Isn't internet shopping a phenomenon largely restricted to the west? Don't most folks east of the Rockies p/u a phone or haul their buns to buy stuff? Just a guess.
Click to expand...

well, where I am there is a lack of quality B&M knife stores. Gander Mountain had some nice ones, but I bought them all :o

like there aren't any decent spyderco's around so I had to order one from NGK.
 
Here in MA there is a distinct culture frowning on guns and knives, therefore there aren't a lot of places to see good cutlery. There are a few places in Boston, buy why should I spend a half-hour on the train just to see higher prices than I can get online? On top of that, I can have the knives sent to my home in discreet packaging and don't have to have other people know that I'm shopping for knives.
 
oregon, interesting thinking. Keep in mind, though, that there are quite a few really, really sharp companies making excellent working knives and a few collectables, too, at bargain prices: CRKT, Kershaw, Spyderco.

The custom, CRK, Strider, and Benchmade (?) end of the spectrum can price itself out of the general market, and we'll still have plenty of hot stuff to buy.

They can't control price by controlling supply when there are so many other suppliers ready to move in on their overpriced niche. "Of course, they need a product that not everyone can produce." And the more overpriced it is, the easier it is for others to make that move.

PPS: the northeast generally doesn't have a deep hunting culture, so gun & knife stores are rare. They aren't an urban phenomenon.
 
oregon said:
PPS: Isn't internet shopping a phenomenon largely restricted to the west? Don't most folks east of the Rockies p/u a phone or haul their buns to buy stuff? Just a guess.
Click to expand...

I live in the heart of Dog Creek Valley in Ohio and can report that I have zero knife stores within a short driving distance, save the occassional SAK display at the hardware store.

My knives come via the internet from primarily two dealers-
SAKs: Felinevet
all other: NGK

Andy
 
cool_hand_luke said:
I live in the heart of Dog Creek Valley in Ohio and can report that I have zero knife stores within a short driving distance, save the occassional SAK display at the hardware store.

My knives come via the internet from primarily two dealers-
SAKs: Felinevet
all other: NGK
Click to expand...

So if Benchmade (and only Benchmade for now) was able to have all its designated vendors, and there is a list, sell @ MSRP then you might call Nick or Craig @ F, F & F in Ashland to order a Benchmade. With NGK only able to buy Benchmade from F, F & F (or other designated sellers who must sell at MSRP) your call would yield a lower cost than your keystroke would.

I can't say that this can or would happen but NGK's immediate experience is heading in this direction wouldn't you say?

Best,

oregon
 
oregon said:
So if Benchmade (and only Benchmade for now) was able to have all its designated vendors, and there is a list, sell @ MSRP then you might call Nick or Craig @ F, F & F in Ashland to order a Benchmade. With NGK only able to buy Benchmade from F, F & F (or other designated sellers who must sell at MSRP) your call would yield a lower cost than your keystroke would.

I can't say that this can or would happen but NGK's immediate experience is heading in this direction wouldn't you say?

Best,

oregon
Click to expand...

Good point. It will be interesting to see where this all leads.

Andy
 
WadeF said:
The only reason I own any Benchmades is because I could afford to buy them from places like NGK, and other online dealers that offer great prices. If I had to pay typical mall store prices ($170-180 for a knife rather than $110-130) I wouldn't have bought any Benchmades. Without places like NGK I would think Benchmade would move a lot less product. If they go with price fixing so everyone can make $50 on a knife, that's going to put the price of their product out of reach for a lot of people. So Benchmade would rather sell less knives so some dealers could make more profit? Doesn't make sense to me from Benchmade's perspective. ....
Click to expand...

Exactly. No way in hell that I would pay $150 for a BM 710 or $160 for a BM 940. To me they are not worth it. I also wouldn't pay $80 for a Mini-Griptilian either.

Without NGK I would have never tried Benchmade and they would have lost the business of myself and my friends that bought Benchmade.

What are they thinking? :eek:
 
Joe-Dirt said:
Exactly. No way in hell that I would pay $150 for a BM 710 or $160 for a BM 940. To me they are not worth it. I also wouldn't pay $80 for a Mini-Griptilian either.

Without NGK I would have never tried Benchmade and they would have lost the business of myself and my friends that bought Benchmade.
Click to expand...

Seconded. My friends are always shocked that I own more than one Spyderco or Benchmade knife because they are so amazingly expensive at the local stores. When I got my first job I drove around trying to find the best price on a 550 and I could not get within spitting distance of 90$.

Seconded again. The first serious knife I ever bought was a lime green BM 555 from NGK and so far I have turned two brothers and one co-worker onto buying from NGK.

For shame Benchmade.
 
DaveH said:
Here's the problem, and it happens with every company.

Established (think brick and motar) business that retail knives have a higher cost or are used to higher profits, generally speaking the prices they charge are "higher".

Internet retailers, generally have a lower cost of doing business due to various reasons, so they can sell their knives at lower costs.

Pretty soon the higher costs stores get grumpy as they may perceave (real or not) that they are losing customers to internet stores. Rather then attempting to make their operations more efficient, they bitch at the manufacturer to try and make it hard for the low cost reailer to get stuff to sell.

The manufacturer is in a bind because they can't afford to piss off their high cost retailers because they still represent a significant % of their sales. Obviously the manufacturer has to strike a balance.

IMO penalizing the low cost store is the wrong move to make, lower cost means more product sold and greater demand. What they should be doing is encouraging high cost of doing business stores to do better.
Click to expand...

Here it is in black and white people. Dave has hit the nail on the head. How many times have we bitched about service at retail outlets, no matter what the product. I have a nice little expensive (read MSRP) B&M here in Fred. Va. I have worked myself into either 15 or 20% discount (depending on which knife I choose) and I still over pay around 20.00 or so over internet. I do so gladly because I like to handle the knives. BUT, I had to spend 500.00 or so dollars before they would acknowledge me walking through the door. They do nothing to promote their knife buisness and rely on the customer to be self knowledged. If they put just a little effort to selling, they would probably double sales.
 
I think there is a lot of truth to what Dave said too. Many of the sellers actually believe there is a such thing as a product that sells itself. Its a myth though. You see it all the time in some knife stores. They don't even know the names of the knives or how to close the locks without studying the thing many times so how are they supposed to sell it? They can't. They probably know less than the customer does about them a lot of the time.

You have to work a sale and if you really stop to think about it when you carry x amount of knives you find out pretty quick in the store which ones the owner pushes and knows about and which ones he/she likes. (many times by just a quick glance at their pocket clip). Some knives are easier to sell than others and many have a mental block about price tags I think. To most of rural America I still think they believe a $35 knife is expensive ( and to many I guess it probably is) so its sometimes hard for one to push or even mention the ones in BM price points. I doubt they get talked about as often as the Spydercos or older style Bucks, Gerbers, or Kershaw and CRKT just for that reason alone. And yes I know BM has a cheaper line of knives. But compared to all the above they don't seem to hold their own from what I can tell sales wise.

Spyderco, CRKT, and Kershaw all seem more tuned into the working mans pocket book and their tastes to me. And for the money difference, there isn't enough quality difference to make BM more attractive for double the money or more in many cases on their more attractive and desireable knives.

Don't get me wrong. I love my BM knives but I paid dearly for them even with a discount.


STR
 
Esav Benyamin said:
oregon, interesting thinking. Keep in mind, though, that there are quite a few really, really sharp companies making excellent working knives and a few collectables, too, at bargain prices: CRKT, Kershaw, Spyderco.

The custom, CRK, Strider, and Benchmade (?) end of the spectrum can price itself out of the general market, and we'll still have plenty of hot stuff to buy.

They can't control price by controlling supply when there are so many other suppliers ready to move in on their overpriced niche. "Of course, they need a product that not everyone can produce." And the more overpriced it is, the easier it is for others to make that move.

PPS: the northeast generally doesn't have a deep hunting culture, so gun & knife stores are rare. They aren't an urban phenomenon.
Click to expand...

Thank you kindly for your post. I admire your ability to focus your knowledge so well. I really appreciate your efforts here and at KF.

If you want a grip or a 42, two BM only products that come to mind, you can only get them from Benchmade. The grip has the licensed Axis lock and the 42, well, is special don't you think. Maybe neither is your flavor but you can only get them from Benchmade. They have cornered the market for these knives. If you want one then you must buy them at the going rate.

I see the 42 going for $165 at disco with $200 MSRP. Will you pay $400 for a custom or $165 for Cold S when the legend is available for $200? Or, will you pay the additional $35 (not even the price of a tank of gas) to get BM42 you want?

Perhaps on the horizon CRK or CRTK or Kershaw will deliver a market leader balisong. I would hope so as I would like to swing it. Some day others may license or even outdo the Axis lock. Isn't it remarkable how such an old tool as the knife has new life breathed into it constantly by inventive folk. It is a terrific time to enjoy cutlery.

Benchmade SPECIAL dealers number 33. 5 in the West and 28 in the East (where the people are, east of the Rockies). I have tried to go online with all 33. All the westerners are online with shopable stores. Only a smattering of the easterners are. OK some have email and respond after a few days or a week but no outstanding online stores to speak of. You, my friend, are surrounded by these folk. Visit or call is your best bet to purchase from them. And, of the 28, I haven't found any trend toward discounting from MSRP.

Best,

oregon
 
I bought 2 Manix and I'm about to buy another knife. NGK was reasonably priced by there are better on ebay, which is where I ended up buying them.
 
If you can't get a Grip, go for the D'Allara drop point :)

Balisongs are great knives. I wish I could carry one. Not for flipping but as a regular EDC, a simple, strong, everyday knife. Legal strictures compel me to carry something else.

Knife dealers in New York City, for example, are few and far between, especially for so densely populated an area. The overhead in stores in NYC drives their prices way up.

I'm sure there are knife stores in New Jersey. I haven't run into many of them. We have a New Jersey Knife Collectors Association, which meets once a month for a few hours at a nice restaurant. In the bar! :D We get to play with a tremendous variety of knives. Sometimes people ask around if we can bring a certain knife or companies' knives for them to handle. We did Bark Rivers and Daltons recently.

Sales is always a rough field. Running an actual store with the expense of rent and heat and light and being there at set hours is daunting. NGK and Bayou Lafourche Knife Works seem to handle it pretty well, but both are also good internet dealers.

I remember a mall knife store near here. (Collucci used to work there! :cool: ) They had to carry a lot of non-knife stuff to keep afloat and eventually closed.

One problem we are all up against is the nature of business itself. It is constantly changing. As successful policies spread, they create their own competition, and competitors adapt, and develop new policies. As an industry like knives prospers, more manufacturers and sales outlets pop up looking for a share.

We really shouldn't get too upset -- yet -- about what's going on with Benchmade because it may not last. A new policy may supersede what's happening now. I'm not sure how well they thought out the current policy. And why they think Benchmades will sell themselves. Maybe they do. How much current production is already spoken for by military contracts?

Well, it's late, I'm tired, I'm babbling. Rain all weekend and rain coming all week. Gotta put in some time maintaining my knives. Don't want them to rust! :eek:

Good night! :D
 
Esav,

Here are the Benchmade special stores hemming you in, you lucky fellow you. You are actually awash in a sea of Benchmade focused dealers. Those of us on the left coast can barely wet our beaks. Have you visited any of these?

NY: Marbles ENT/T&TGunnery - Seaford, NY and The Camp Site - Hintington Station, NY and American Outdoor Sports - Farmingdale, NY

NJ : EH Salomon Shooters Supply - Cream Ridge, NJ and Holster Depot - Whiting, NJ and Dubrows Nursery (?) - Liningston, NJ

PA: Claytons Hunting & Fishing - Horsham, PA and Gizmo Joes -Fairless Hills, PA and Country Knives - Intercourse, PA and Troy Gun Shop - Elizabethtown, PA

There are none, zero, in Oregon. Washington, only one, Double Eagle - Tacoma, WA. California, two, EDC Knives - Oakland, CA and Plaza Cutlery - Costa Mesa, CA.

Wet enough for you?

Best,

oregon
 
None of those is really in my neighborhood. I'm not up for an expedition to look at a knife. It may seem like a lot, but given the incompetence of so many knife retailers, I couldn't summon the interest to actually travel to get to one.
 
Man .... this really is disappointing news about Benchmade's decision. If this is a business strategy, then it may be one that comes back to haunt them in the long run. :thumbdn:
 
I would really like to hear BM's side of the story--what their reasons for this are. Not that I doubt that the folks at NGK are telling the truth--it is just that there are two sides to every story, and I am not sure if we really understand why BM did this.

That being said, I do not doubt the rudeness of Mr. DeAsis; I have seen it myself at two shows. Maybe he does not like to do shows, maybe he does not like to interact with customers, maybe he was having "bad hair" days on both occasions. It is really getting old.

It's too bad: As almost everyone on this thread has pointed out, BM does make great knives, and they make some that have no direct counterparts. There are, however, a lot of great knives out there, and I for one, do not need to own them all.

I have a large number of BM knives, of all classes except red. This kind of behavior will only discourage me from purchasing others. Life is too short to deal with this stuff.
 
G'day all,
I buy from NGK because they offer a first quality service, stand behind what they sell, and will ship for a reasonble price to Australia.
Let's be as gentlemanly as Mike re: Benchmade.
That gentleman's attitude will continue to get my business.
If I needed to vent, I'd search out BM's email address. If they listen to dealers they will probably listen to customers.
Greg
 
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