-
The BladeForums.com 2024 Traditional Knife is ready to order! See this thread for details: https://www.bladeforums.com/threads/bladeforums-2024-traditional-knife.2003187/
Price is$300$250 ea (shipped within CONUS). If you live outside the US, I will contact you after your order for extra shipping charges.
Order here: https://www.bladeforums.com/help/2024-traditional/ - Order as many as you like, we have plenty.
Nick Wheeler Prototype Fighter. "Oh YEA "......
- Thread starter JParanee
- Start date
- Joined
- Dec 3, 1999
- Messages
- 9,437
A friend of mine that knows a lot more about these things than I do, let me know that the Micarta I called maroon is actually considered natural, based on the fact it's yellow while working it.
I had thought it might be considered natural, but the natural stuff I have is a dark brown and that large piece is a very dark maroon. But true maroon Micarta is that color through and through, all the time. So I guess I have natural maroon, LOL. (I added that last part on my own)
I had thought it might be considered natural, but the natural stuff I have is a dark brown and that large piece is a very dark maroon. But true maroon Micarta is that color through and through, all the time. So I guess I have natural maroon, LOL. (I added that last part on my own)
- Joined
- Jan 21, 2000
- Messages
- 8,888
In Joe's first post he said heat treat would be described at a later time, and I realize Nick you have posted your protocol sequence and some video of knives going into the salt pot. But in re-reading the thread I'm not finding where you left the edges HRC and what the spine HRC is above the hamon--whether dead soft or just a few points below the edge? I'd be interested to know more, if you can clue us in.
Thanks!
Will
Thanks!
Will
- Joined
- Dec 3, 1999
- Messages
- 9,437
I think my buddy Jason was talking about me when he asked about people REALLY making knives, so I thought I better quit working on the rest of the group for a little while to post these up (#1 bottom, #2 middle, #3 top) and show they REALLY exist. 
The "natural/maroon/yellow/red/???" old Westinghouse Micarta on our friend Michael Starr's knife. It's already a couple shades darker than when it was first buffed. I really don't know how long it will take to get to the maroon color that the parent block has, but I am guestimating a year+
#1, 2, 3!!! Actually only about 0.010" difference in these spines... they're just at weird angles to each other.
Well, I obviously hit a huge snag by running out of some materials, but they did deliver two bars of 416 stainless. I found this incredibly sweet and attractive shop helper to surface grind the mill scale off of it for us.
UNFORTUNATELY, they also delivered the hidden thread bolts, but they're the wrong size
.... I ordered the right ones from a different supplier.
The "natural/maroon/yellow/red/???" old Westinghouse Micarta on our friend Michael Starr's knife. It's already a couple shades darker than when it was first buffed. I really don't know how long it will take to get to the maroon color that the parent block has, but I am guestimating a year+
#1, 2, 3!!!
Actually only about 0.010" difference in these spines... they're just at weird angles to each other.
Well, I obviously hit a huge snag by running out of some materials, but they did deliver two bars of 416 stainless. I found this incredibly sweet and attractive shop helper to surface grind the mill scale off of it for us.
UNFORTUNATELY, they also delivered the hidden thread bolts, but they're the wrong size
.... I ordered the right ones from a different supplier.
- Joined
- Jan 21, 2000
- Messages
- 8,888
Ah, now that was worth waiting for. :thumbup:
Beautiful, beautiful work -- what a lineup.
And that natural micarta has got to be the coolest, strangest stuff ever. Congrats, Michael! You have to promise to post color DIP photos (Development In Progress).
Beautiful, beautiful work -- what a lineup.
And that natural micarta has got to be the coolest, strangest stuff ever. Congrats, Michael! You have to promise to post color DIP photos (Development In Progress).
- Joined
- Dec 11, 2005
- Messages
- 2,234
I was starting to think I made a mistake when choosing the black G10 when I saw the list of others wood picks... these latest picks reaffirmed my choice was a good one!:thumbup:
the natural micarta coloring with age is something I'd like to see as well.
thanks for the completion pics nick, Jeff
the natural micarta coloring with age is something I'd like to see as well.
thanks for the completion pics nick, Jeff
Last edited:
- Joined
- Jan 21, 2000
- Messages
- 8,888
Nick,
2 quick questions--
1) Are you putting a secondary/micro edge bevel on these, or does the convex primary grind go all the way to the edge? Or maybe a blended flat-to-convex primary? and
2) What do you reckon the Rc hardness is at the edge and at the spine?
Thanks!
Will
2 quick questions--
1) Are you putting a secondary/micro edge bevel on these, or does the convex primary grind go all the way to the edge? Or maybe a blended flat-to-convex primary? and
2) What do you reckon the Rc hardness is at the edge and at the spine?
Thanks!
Will
- Joined
- Dec 3, 1999
- Messages
- 9,437
Will, sorry I saw you asked me that before I posted the pics and I forgot to reply.
The very short answer to your specific question is that I'm not 100% sure.
If a guy is inclined to know more (and I know YOU are Will!... BTW- I'm breaking my answers to your questions into two posts) then here are the specific details of how I heat-treated these blades. The thermal cycles were all the same, but the actual hardening process was a bit different for some since some wanted a full hard blade, some didn't care, and some begged me to get a hamon in their blades just kidding, sort of
-Forge to shape
-Two stress relieving cycles in the forge
-Grind scale off with coarse belt and contact wheel and tack weld a washer on tang to hang blade by a wire
-Into molten salt at 1700F, 1600, 1500, and 1400 (doing 20 blades at a time, each one cools to room temp between heats)
-Rough grind
-1250F just as a stress relief cycle (still not convinced this is necessary, but it doesn't hurt either)
The "glory" step...
-Into salt at 1475F. Salt will drop temp because of the cold thermal mass of the blade being submerged into it. Wait for salt to come back up to 1475F, and then let blade soak for 5 minutes.
-Pull blade from salt and QUICKLY quench point down into 120F Park #50 commercial quench oil
Interrupted quench, so: Down into oil for a count of 1,2,3,4,5,6,7... Out 1,2,3...In till cool enough to handle with bare hands.
In a blade with a cross section like these, that will give you a differentially hardened blade with the hamon running through the blade around the 0.125-0.150" thick area (or... right around the middle of the blade).
If I wasn't after a hamon, I did not interrupt the quench.
Some blades gave me some fits and I had to tweak things like the austenitizing temp and the interrupt sequence.
The blades were then tempered in the digitally controlled oven at 400F for an hour. If they were full hard, I can get a pretty accurate Rc reading off the surface ground ricasso. If they were differentially hardened, I go over the edge with a hardness file. Without a REALLY fancy Rockwell machine, you cannot get an accurate reading off of a test piece that is not flat/parallel sides/equal thickness.... (like a knife bevel).
However, I feel (from experience) that if I heat treat a W2 blade for full hardness and another of the same specs for differential hardening.... that the hardness AT THE EDGE for both will be about the same. Just one will be that hard all the way through, and 1 won't. I could be wrong, but that's how I feel.
All the blades ended up being tempered 3 times for an hour each at 450F which gave me a reading of 60C (for the full hard blades) on my Rockwell tester... and that seems to correlate with the hardness files on the edges of the differential blades as well.
The very short answer to your specific question is that I'm not 100% sure.
If a guy is inclined to know more (and I know YOU are Will!
... BTW- I'm breaking my answers to your questions into two posts) then here are the specific details of how I heat-treated these blades. The thermal cycles were all the same, but the actual hardening process was a bit different for some since some wanted a full hard blade, some didn't care, and some begged me to get a hamon in their blades just kidding, sort of -Forge to shape
-Two stress relieving cycles in the forge
-Grind scale off with coarse belt and contact wheel and tack weld a washer on tang to hang blade by a wire
-Into molten salt at 1700F, 1600, 1500, and 1400 (doing 20 blades at a time, each one cools to room temp between heats)
-Rough grind
-1250F just as a stress relief cycle (still not convinced this is necessary, but it doesn't hurt either)
The "glory" step...
-Into salt at 1475F. Salt will drop temp because of the cold thermal mass of the blade being submerged into it. Wait for salt to come back up to 1475F, and then let blade soak for 5 minutes.
-Pull blade from salt and QUICKLY quench point down into 120F Park #50 commercial quench oil
Interrupted quench, so: Down into oil for a count of 1,2,3,4,5,6,7... Out 1,2,3...In till cool enough to handle with bare hands.
In a blade with a cross section like these, that will give you a differentially hardened blade with the hamon running through the blade around the 0.125-0.150" thick area (or... right around the middle of the blade).
If I wasn't after a hamon, I did not interrupt the quench.
Some blades gave me some fits and I had to tweak things like the austenitizing temp and the interrupt sequence.
The blades were then tempered in the digitally controlled oven at 400F for an hour. If they were full hard, I can get a pretty accurate Rc reading off the surface ground ricasso. If they were differentially hardened, I go over the edge with a hardness file. Without a REALLY fancy Rockwell machine, you cannot get an accurate reading off of a test piece that is not flat/parallel sides/equal thickness.... (like a knife bevel).
However, I feel (from experience) that if I heat treat a W2 blade for full hardness and another of the same specs for differential hardening.... that the hardness AT THE EDGE for both will be about the same. Just one will be that hard all the way through, and 1 won't. I could be wrong, but that's how I feel.
All the blades ended up being tempered 3 times for an hour each at 450F which gave me a reading of 60C (for the full hard blades) on my Rockwell tester... and that seems to correlate with the hardness files on the edges of the differential blades as well.
Last edited:
- Joined
- Dec 3, 1999
- Messages
- 9,437
The edge stuff would be best explained by describing how I ground these.
-Taken to 0.040 to 0.050" thick at the edge prior to hardening
-After final temper, taken down to 0.015" with a 60grit ceramic belt
-Buzz blade with an 80X disc on the 9" disc sander to check for flat/uniformity
-Back to grinder with 120X belt, take edge to 0.010"
-Buzz with 120X disc to check for flat and this is also the time at which I cut the plunges in and even them up
-Feather or "roll" the edge down to sharp with worn 120X belt
-220X belt with hard platen, then switch over to the rotary platen with same belt to really feather edge out nicely
-Grind clip down to zero edge (gotta be VERY VERY careful handling the blade after that!!!)
-320X disc on 9" disc sander no backing, this makes sure everything is flat, true, and CLEAN
-320X disc on 9" disc with rubber pad backing... doesn't change much, just gives a nicer finish (I do the major 320X grinding/sanding without backing because it helps to keep my grind lines sharp)
- "Gator" structured belt on flat platen, the switch to rotary platen with same belt
-Finally a 600X cork belt charged with Brownell's polishing compound on the rotary platen.
So.... These are very thinly ground slicers. Joe didn't want me to design a knife to hack through cinder blocks.... he wanted a knife that had the horsepower to stop an attacker with a blunt force back-cut to the head.... but a thin edge to slice an attacker to the core if needed. This knife is supposed to be a 500 hp Ferrari... not a diesel big rig
Thanks guys
Edited because I forgot a step
-Taken to 0.040 to 0.050" thick at the edge prior to hardening
-After final temper, taken down to 0.015" with a 60grit ceramic belt
-Buzz blade with an 80X disc on the 9" disc sander to check for flat/uniformity
-Back to grinder with 120X belt, take edge to 0.010"
-Buzz with 120X disc to check for flat and this is also the time at which I cut the plunges in and even them up
-Feather or "roll" the edge down to sharp with worn 120X belt
-220X belt with hard platen, then switch over to the rotary platen with same belt to really feather edge out nicely
-Grind clip down to zero edge (gotta be VERY VERY careful handling the blade after that!!!)
-320X disc on 9" disc sander no backing, this makes sure everything is flat, true, and CLEAN
-320X disc on 9" disc with rubber pad backing... doesn't change much, just gives a nicer finish (I do the major 320X grinding/sanding without backing because it helps to keep my grind lines sharp)
- "Gator" structured belt on flat platen, the switch to rotary platen with same belt
-Finally a 600X cork belt charged with Brownell's polishing compound on the rotary platen.
So.... These are very thinly ground slicers. Joe didn't want me to design a knife to hack through cinder blocks.... he wanted a knife that had the horsepower to stop an attacker with a blunt force back-cut to the head.... but a thin edge to slice an attacker to the core if needed. This knife is supposed to be a 500 hp Ferrari... not a diesel big rig
Thanks guys
Edited because I forgot a step
Last edited:
- Joined
- Jan 21, 2000
- Messages
- 8,888
" ... -Back to grinder with 120X belt, take edge to 0.010"
WOW! I had no idea these edges would be that fine, and convexed to zero should give really decent strength/support behind the edge. That is super, super news! Jesus, these things really will cut like a light saber—and hit like Joe’s lead pipe. Man, that is tremendous. :thumbup:
One other inane question, and just a guess will be fine, but do the spine hardnesses vary much between the through-hardened blades and those that are differentially hardened? And what would your best guess be as to hardness there? Just trying to get a feel for what kind of pry strength/spring these will have—obviously, at .30” thick that’s not an issue, but my O/C on this stuff demands I at least ask.
LOVE the extra stress-relief steps, by the way. That is one helluva nice heat treat protocol.
THANKS, NICK!!!
Edited to say -- if you have gotten any vibe off of any post or PM I've sent at any time, that may have suggested I was a little impatient for completion, PLEASE disregard. After reading how many steps/cycles have gone into the heat treat and finishing, I have to say, this is the farthest thing from a "bare bones" job I can imagine. It may be bare bones for you, but for most this would be taking it to the limit. Very impressive, Nick--glad I asked. :thumbup:
WOW! I had no idea these edges would be that fine, and convexed to zero should give really decent strength/support behind the edge. That is super, super news! Jesus, these things really will cut like a light saber—and hit like Joe’s lead pipe. Man, that is tremendous. :thumbup:
One other inane question, and just a guess will be fine, but do the spine hardnesses vary much between the through-hardened blades and those that are differentially hardened? And what would your best guess be as to hardness there? Just trying to get a feel for what kind of pry strength/spring these will have—obviously, at .30” thick that’s not an issue, but my O/C on this stuff demands I at least ask.
LOVE the extra stress-relief steps, by the way. That is one helluva nice heat treat protocol.
THANKS, NICK!!!
Edited to say -- if you have gotten any vibe off of any post or PM I've sent at any time, that may have suggested I was a little impatient for completion, PLEASE disregard. After reading how many steps/cycles have gone into the heat treat and finishing, I have to say, this is the farthest thing from a "bare bones" job I can imagine. It may be bare bones for you, but for most this would be taking it to the limit. Very impressive, Nick--glad I asked.
:thumbup:
Last edited:
- Joined
- Jun 23, 2007
- Messages
- 2,142
Checking back in to say this sort of accomplishment is why we see Nick as the Wizard Knifemaker that he is.
(We should also have monthly pics of the Natural Westinghouse Micarta ageing.)
John
(We should also have monthly pics of the Natural Westinghouse Micarta ageing.)
John
- Joined
- Jan 21, 2000
- Messages
- 8,888
- Joined
- Dec 23, 2006
- Messages
- 15,019
John White you are the man no doubt about it . No wonder P Long likes you so much
When Nick and I started talking about this I knew these where gonna be special little evil Basterds
Maybe we should call um Evil Basterds
They say god is in the details and I believe it ......... Nick did this project right with his attention to detail performance minded detail
This is the kind of detail that makes legendary blades
When Nick and I started talking about this I knew these where gonna be special little evil Basterds
Maybe we should call um Evil Basterds
They say god is in the details and I believe it ......... Nick did this project right with his attention to detail performance minded detail
This is the kind of detail that makes legendary blades
- Joined
- Dec 5, 2005
- Messages
- 27,861
I think that one's taken, Joe. Evil Basterd, now that suits this knife to a T. An edgy name for those with sharp tongues.
- Joined
- Dec 3, 1999
- Messages
- 9,437
Ha ha, thanks guys
John, your check is in the mail my friend!
Will, there actually is quite a bit of difference. I drew the spine back on the fully hardened blades while I was drawing the tang/guard shoulder area on all the blades (just for good measure). So even the fully hardened blades are not fully hard anymore.
The ones that were drawn back are right around 60 at the edge and 52-54 on the spine. The ones that were interrupted in the quench are more like high 40's in the spine area.... for the most part. What's fascinating about an interrupted quench at those temps, is you will still get SOME hardening around the perimeter of the blade/tang (very little in those areas, but it does happen). Whereas a clay coated blade would NOT have that.
Oh, and Will, I know I'm dense, but I didn't ever pick up any vibe about impatience or anything like that from you or any involved here (other than myself!!! :foot.
Thanks guys!!!
John, your check is in the mail my friend!
Will, there actually is quite a bit of difference. I drew the spine back on the fully hardened blades while I was drawing the tang/guard shoulder area on all the blades (just for good measure). So even the fully hardened blades are not fully hard anymore.
The ones that were drawn back are right around 60 at the edge and 52-54 on the spine. The ones that were interrupted in the quench are more like high 40's in the spine area.... for the most part. What's fascinating about an interrupted quench at those temps, is you will still get SOME hardening around the perimeter of the blade/tang (very little in those areas, but it does happen). Whereas a clay coated blade would NOT have that.
Oh, and Will, I know I'm dense, but I didn't ever pick up any vibe about impatience or anything like that from you or any involved here (other than myself!!! :foot
.Thanks guys!!!
- Joined
- Dec 3, 1999
- Messages
- 9,437
One more thing since I'm almost done with this coffee! ..... There was some concern about blade finish.... that there were some grooves or scratches in a blade or blades. That hadn't even crossed my mind since I finished them.... but now I see where the concern came from. In the photo showing the spine and blade numbers, there is Ballistol (a protective oil) that I didn't bother wiping off of the blade, that does look like it could be something wrong with the blade itself. But I promise it's just the oil.
I just wanted to clear that up in case anyone else had thought those were scratches or grooves.
Thanks!
..... There was some concern about blade finish.... that there were some grooves or scratches in a blade or blades. That hadn't even crossed my mind since I finished them.... but now I see where the concern came from. In the photo showing the spine and blade numbers, there is Ballistol (a protective oil) that I didn't bother wiping off of the blade, that does look like it could be something wrong with the blade itself. But I promise it's just the oil. I just wanted to clear that up in case anyone else had thought those were scratches or grooves.
Thanks!
- Joined
- Jan 21, 2000
- Messages
- 8,888
So high 40's to low 50's--that's wonderful! Plenty of spring toughness but not soft enough to easily take a set (of course, among most of us I suppose only you and Joe would be able to bend a .30" thick blade far enough to test that theory
). Mainly, I'm glad to know for sure the spines are well up from dead soft. :thumbup:Just gets better and better.
sheathmaker
Custom Leather Sheaths
- Joined
- May 18, 2005
- Messages
- 4,650
Angie, I'm starting to get emails about knives coming to me from Nick. Please be sure Nick CLEARLY identifies each knife with the correct owner.
All you new owners, we can do this two ways....you can tell me color, style, right or left.......or I can guess. You make the call.
Thank you over and out.
Paul
All you new owners, we can do this two ways....you can tell me color, style, right or left.......or I can guess. You make the call.
Thank you over and out.
Paul