NJ Gov. Ignores Property Rights and Reality, Signs Draconian Ivory Ban Into Law

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Elephants are literally being wiped out in Africa by ivory poachers. Tens of thousands of African elephants are killed each year, and the trend is accelerating. The poachers are mostly terrorist-affiliated extremists who use their profits to spread death and misery around the world. These profits are used to kill American soldiers.

US enforcement officials lack the resources to distinguish between legal pre-ban ivory and illegal post-ban elephant ivory — or even fossil ivory from other species — and the ivory dealers and their political allies want to keep it that way.

The current laws against illegal, post-ban elephant ivory are not working, largely because dealers lie about the origin of the ivory, and enforcement officials lack the resources to prove otherwise.

The US is a major importer of illegal ivory purchased either as raw ivory or as finished products made in China and other Asian markets. Tons of Illegal ivory worth millions of dollars flow into the United States each year. Enforcement officials intercept only a tiny fraction of this illegal ivory.

This issue has nothing to do with knife rights. Doug Ritter has a vested interest in seeing that all bans on elephant ivory are repealed because he represents the industry that sells products made from ivory. As you can see from his hyperbolic OP, he is adverse to presenting the full, honest story.

Lets do all we can to save the elephant. Elephants are facing extinction.

Yes, some owners of legitimate ivory products will be inconvenienced. Many will not be able to sell their existing ivory. So let current owners of legal ivory have their ivory tested and certified as legal at their own cost, and then we can refine the law to let them keep their pre-ban ivory. But to just open the ivory trade up worldwide, as Ritter wants, will destroy a beautiful creature.
 
Twindog said:
Elephants are literally being wiped out in Africa by ivory poachers. Tens of thousands of African elephants are killed each year, and the trend is accelerating. The poachers are mostly terrorist-affiliated extremists who use their profits to spread death and misery around the world. These profits are used to kill American soldiers.

US enforcement officials lack the resources to distinguish between legal pre-ban ivory and illegal post-ban elephant ivory — or even fossil ivory from other species — and the ivory dealers and their political allies want to keep it that way.

The current laws against illegal, post-ban elephant ivory are not working, largely because dealers lie about the origin of the ivory, and enforcement officials lack the resources to prove otherwise.

The US is a major importer of illegal ivory purchased either as raw ivory or as finished products made in China and other Asian markets. Tons of Illegal ivory worth millions of dollars flow into the United States each year. Enforcement officials intercept only a tiny fraction of this illegal ivory.

This issue has nothing to do with knife rights. Doug Ritter has a vested interest in seeing that all bans on elephant ivory are repealed because he represents the industry that sells products made from ivory. As you can see from his hyperbolic OP, he is adverse to presenting the full, honest story.

Lets do all we can to save the elephant. Elephants are facing extinction.

Yes, some owners of legitimate ivory products will be inconvenienced. Many will not be able to sell their existing ivory. So let current owners of legal ivory have their ivory tested and certified as legal at their own cost, and then we can refine the law to let them keep their pre-ban ivory. But to just open the ivory trade up worldwide, as Ritter wants, will destroy a beautiful creature.
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This is vastly better put than I'd have been able to articulate, but it is my view of this situation also.
 
Twindog said:
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Lets do all we can to save the elephant. Elephants are facing extinction.

Yes, some owners of legitimate ivory products will be inconvenienced. Many will not be able to sell their existing ivory. So let current owners of legal ivory have their ivory tested and certified as legal at their own cost, and then we can refine the law to let them keep their pre-ban ivory. But to just open the ivory trade up worldwide, as Ritter wants, will destroy a beautiful creature.
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I would be in favor of making the wild elephant extinct. It would keep idealistic thugs from taking property under wrongful pretenses. You want an elephant, buy it at your expense, feed it and keep it in your corral. I have no interest in paying for your pet project.

n2s
 
+1 twindog, thank you for this articulate defense of elephants-- I would volunteer my ivory for destruction if they passed a confiscation law, I would of course pry it out of my antiques and have it replaced professionally with micarta.

Elephants are more important than our pleasure at seeing ivory on something.

n2sharp I say the same for all humans, as we have so many and genetic diversity is not an issue-- lets start the culling right now.
 
Gehazi said:
+1 twindog, thank you for this articulate defense of elephants-- I would volunteer my ivory for destruction if they passed a confiscation law, I would of course pry it out of my antiques and have it replaced professionally with micarta.

Elephants are more important than our pleasure at seeing ivory on something.
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Which is why you should pay for it out of your own pocket.

n2s
 
not2sharp said:
I would be in favor of making the wild elephant extinct. It would keep idealistic thugs from taking property under wrongful pretenses. You want an elephant, buy it at your expense, feed it and keep it in your corral. I have no interest in paying for your pet project.

n2s
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I'm going to say that I sincerely hope you're trying to make a joke* here. Elephants have been proven to be highly intelligent, and capable of complex problem solving, and of emotions very similar in nature to human emotions. It would be a shame of someone were to, say, be in favor of making you and your entire family extinct, no? That'd be bad, right?




*a really bad one
 
The cost of keeping the elephants is far beyond me, but I have donated to organizations in the US who help abused elephants and zoo rejects, I do donate to scientific programs whenever I can as well, the fact is the existence of the elephant outweighs your concerns. My greatest hope is that africa somehow can govern itself and reach a golden age of middle class ascendance, then the elephant would be looked after like a panda.

but it shows a gross lack of empathy to say they have no right to exist in the wild because they look so damn good on a knife. We owe our children the ability to see these animals in nature.
 
Twindog said:
Elephants are literally being wiped out in Africa by ivory poachers. Tens of thousands of African elephants are killed each year, and the trend is accelerating. The poachers are mostly terrorist-affiliated extremists who use their profits to spread death and misery around the world. These profits are used to kill American soldiers.

US enforcement officials lack the resources to distinguish between legal pre-ban ivory and illegal post-ban elephant ivory — or even fossil ivory from other species — and the ivory dealers and their political allies want to keep it that way.

The current laws against illegal, post-ban elephant ivory are not working, largely because dealers lie about the origin of the ivory, and enforcement officials lack the resources to prove otherwise.

The US is a major importer of illegal ivory purchased either as raw ivory or as finished products made in China and other Asian markets. Tons of Illegal ivory worth millions of dollars flow into the United States each year. Enforcement officials intercept only a tiny fraction of this illegal ivory.

This issue has nothing to do with knife rights. Doug Ritter has a vested interest in seeing that all bans on elephant ivory are repealed because he represents the industry that sells products made from ivory. As you can see from his hyperbolic OP, he is adverse to presenting the full, honest story.

Lets do all we can to save the elephant. Elephants are facing extinction.

Yes, some owners of legitimate ivory products will be inconvenienced. Many will not be able to sell their existing ivory. So let current owners of legal ivory have their ivory tested and certified as legal at their own cost, and then we can refine the law to let them keep their pre-ban ivory. But to just open the ivory trade up worldwide, as Ritter wants, will destroy a beautiful creature.
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Sorry but the Ban won't do a single thing to help keep the poachers from killing elephants for their ivory. If you think so, it just shows how ignorant you are. Remember, the governments in Africa are just as corrupt as the poachers doing the killing and the terrorist that know you as in INFIDEL....
 
and by purchasing ivory you support jihadi's and the killing of americans, anyone who trades in ivory is complicit.
 
Critter said:
Perhaps in your mind, but not to all of us who have far too much experience with New Jersey's many years of interpreting and expanding laws to further political agendas at the expense of citizen's rights.
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In the law itself is protection of private ownership so that law will not be used to confiscate ivory. Bans on private ownership with subsequent confiscation would take additional legislation.
 
Quiet said:
I'm going to say that I sincerely hope you're trying to make a joke* here. Elephants have been proven to be highly intelligent, and capable of complex problem solving, and of emotions very similar in nature to human emotions. It would be a shame of someone were to, say, be in favor of making you and your entire family extinct, no? That'd be bad, right? *a really bad one
Click to expand...

There are a lot of worthwhile projects out there and I would first and foremost favor things that benefit people rather animals. This whole situation has been fabricated in whole by misguided animal lovers. The Elephant was once a majestic and highly valued game animal. Had we allowed lawful hunting, there would have been well funded, properly supervised management and breeding programs to have allowed the animal to thrive and flourish in the wild. But we ended that, and reduced the animals commercial value to the weight of its ivory. Which is why uncontrolled poaching has diminished the population to dangerous levels. So now we propose banning ivory importation, which will in turn raise the value of ivory even higher to cover the added risks and which will encourage even more poaching. So if there is a joke, it is on you.

n2s
 
n2sharp-- animals are important to people, without the network of lifeforms they provide, our life is not balanced-- out of balance leads to disease and death. and sharp there is lawful hunting on top of all the poaching-- allowing any hunting at all is what keeps fresh ivory on the market for blackmarketeeers to hide behind.

Anyone in the trade of ivory is complicit in terrorism and should be treated as such, from seller, to buyer, to owner.
 
not2sharp said:
There are a lot of worthwhile projects out there and I would first and foremost favor things that benefit people rather animals. This whole situation has been fabricated in whole by misguided animal lovers. The Elephant was once a majestic and highly valued game animal. Had we allowed lawful hunting, there would have been well funded, properly supervised management and breeding programs to have allowed the animal to thrive and flourish in the wild. But we ended that, and reduced the animals commercial value to the weight of its ivory. Which is why uncontrolled poaching has diminished the population to dangerous levels. So now we propose banning ivory importation, which will in turn raise the value of ivory even higher to cover the added risks and which will encourage even more poaching. So if there is a joke, it is on you.

n2s
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Man, what shocking ignorance. Wow.
 
Twindog said:
Elephants are literally being wiped out in Africa by ivory poachers. Tens of thousands of African elephants are killed each year, and the trend is accelerating. The poachers are mostly terrorist-affiliated extremists who use their profits to spread death and misery around the world. These profits are used to kill American soldiers.

US enforcement officials lack the resources to distinguish between legal pre-ban ivory and illegal post-ban elephant ivory — or even fossil ivory from other species — and the ivory dealers and their political allies want to keep it that way.

The current laws against illegal, post-ban elephant ivory are not working, largely because dealers lie about the origin of the ivory, and enforcement officials lack the resources to prove otherwise.

The US is a major importer of illegal ivory purchased either as raw ivory or as finished products made in China and other Asian markets. Tons of Illegal ivory worth millions of dollars flow into the United States each year. Enforcement officials intercept only a tiny fraction of this illegal ivory.

This issue has nothing to do with knife rights. Doug Ritter has a vested interest in seeing that all bans on elephant ivory are repealed because he represents the industry that sells products made from ivory. As you can see from his hyperbolic OP, he is adverse to presenting the full, honest story.

Lets do all we can to save the elephant. Elephants are facing extinction.

Yes, some owners of legitimate ivory products will be inconvenienced. Many will not be able to sell their existing ivory. So let current owners of legal ivory have their ivory tested and certified as legal at their own cost, and then we can refine the law to let them keep their pre-ban ivory. But to just open the ivory trade up worldwide, as Ritter wants, will destroy a beautiful creature.
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Twindog,

I am sorry to say this but you have no idea what you are talking about! I have spent a lot of time in Africa. I have met poachers personally and anti-poaching forces as well. I have worked with government officials in numerous African countries on this issue. I have been in herds of wild elephants on the Angola border with Namibia whilst hunting other species. THE ONLY PROVEN METHOD OF STOPPING POACHERS IS THROUGH REGULATED SPORT HUNTING PERIOD! Kenya has had a hunting ban since the seventies while Tanzania, Namibia, Zimbabwe and others have not. Guess which country has the worst elephant poaching problems in Africa. KENYA!! Why? Because they banned hunting of all forms except game birds, therefore they cannot raise the money to hire anti poaching teams like they have in the other countries I mentioned. In those countries hunters pay an average of $75,000 to hunt an elephant, that money is used to hire anti-poaching teams largely made up of former poachers. Using these guys works in two ways 1) It takes them out of the business of poaching 2) It gives them a job protecting species against poachers, giving them a financial incentive to stop poachers.

Elephants are not even close to being extinct according to all reliable numbers. Bans in the US do NOTHING to stop the poachers who sell almost all poached ivory to China and other Asian countries. This is why organizations like CampFire SUPPORT regulated sport hunting of elephants.

Further to accuse Doug Ritter (Critter) of having a "vested interest" in this issue is so ignorant and uniformed I don't know even know how to answer it, except to say that Doug does this stuff for FREE! He makes nothing from Knife Rights believe me I KNOW this for a fact. Your accusation against Doug is scurrilous and plain stupid.

Do some research before you post stupidity, and accusations like this, because it makes you look like a complete fool to those of us who know the issue and the TRUTH!

Todd J. Rathner
 
not2sharp said:
Now we can have a war on ivory along with the war on drugs. The liberal mind is a curious and vacant thing.

n2s
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This has nothing to with political leanings*, though I imagine that's your attempt at making another joke, right?





*Hi, not liberal. Speaking of which, I find it amusing that you claim to care more about people....but you're participating in the Capital Punishment thread in Political. So, you're essentially not really down with people or animals, are you?
 
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