No soul

Alarion

Alarion

Joined
Nov 26, 2001
Messages
1,375
Did you ever find some custom knives that, although perfectly built, with great skill and impeccable workmanship, are "soul less"?
I did.
I think this of the work of Steve Johnson and Ron Lake first of all.
Lake built one of the finest folding knives ever... and stopped there. I've seen literally dozens of "different" Lake knives. They are all the same. I can't see real difference among them. Oh, yes, a detail may change, the scales may be different or the grip have a unique grind, but they are basically variations on the same theme.
You can only bow in front of the perfect flawless finish, true.
But any CNC machine for grinding complex lenses can give a similar finish (even better). Where's the SOUL of the knife?
The same for Steve Johnson. Perfect workmanship, different knives (far more different than Lake's), but still... they are cold, dead. They lack that spark that leaves you see into the soul of the man which did them.
Perfectly made is all they are.

I've recently seen a very small knife made by a famous knifemaker for his young daughter. It's not anything overly complex, and it's not probably up to his skill in other works, if you limit your observation to the "technical" point of view.
But nonetheless it's incredibly beautiful, with the stars and moon on the balde, and the rounded handle.
You see the soul of the man who did this for his daughter. And it is therefore more beautiful than any Johnson knife I've ever seen.
And it's the knife that remained more impressed into my mind of all the ones he showed me.

I think that in an art knife there must be MUCH more than a plain, perfect execution.
 
You can judge all that just by looking at a knife on a table or in a book? Have you ever talked about knives with Steve or Ron? Have you ever talked to their customers about how meaningful a knife may be to them? Have you ever talked to their family members to see if they have ever received a knife made for them and how special that knife was?

Perhaps the reason their knives seem so flawless is that they love the craft so much that they strive to make the absolute best knives they can. You are defintely way off base with your assumptions.
 
No soul? I think you just don't like the "clean" look. S.R. Johnson, Lake, Lovestrand, Herman and others have this look IMO. I like it.
 
I handled a couple of both (yes, somebody would say I was lucky).
They may love their work a lot, true. But I'm not speaking of loving their work. I'm speaking of letting this love speak through their work.
It's not just because their knives are quite "cold" aesthetically, there are some makers which make very "decorated" knives which are still "cold".
It's because you can't see anything but a perfectly executed knife in them.
AND mostly they are the same to themselves over and over again.

True, I never spoke to Ron Lake, nor to Steve Johnson. Somebody I know who did said they are wonderful persons.
BUT I didn't need to speak to other makers to see the man in the work. Not that one can judge anything of the character of a man from the knife he does (up to a certain point) but you can see something of him nonetheless.
A knife from Lake could have been made by a top quality CNC, for what I know.
In a knife from other, much less skilled and famous makers, you can see the man.
My point is that, if you put too much in perfect execution, you risk the "machine syndrome", where a perfect execution is all that remains.
Mind me, I don't want to be disrespectful to somebody I can only dream to match. If I could make a knife only one tenth as good as Lake's or Johnson's, I'd be a happy man. I can't, and bow to high skill and have the utmost respect for somebody who can take a lump of rolled steel and turn it into such a perfect knife. What I say is that they are very (very) well made knives but not art knives.
The only Lake I liked lately, for example, was made by Lake and then, if I remember correctly, sculpted by someone else.
 
Maybe the fact that Ron Lake and Steve Johnson built nearly flawless knives creates the illusion to you that they have no soul. In every knife I own I am able to find minor blems. Most of the time I can figure out what happened while they were making the knife to create that blem...if I can't figure it out I ask them. Perhaps this kind of thing is what you interpret as "soul" - humans make little mistakes now and again - it comes out in their work.

I've talked to Ron Lake and held one of those near perfect knives. He was very particular about me not calling them perfect. He said it had it's flaws - but for the life of me I couldn't find them. His work is simply amazing and the amount of detail and precision that goes into them is incredible. I personally would have to disagree with your assertion that they have no soul.

~Mitch
 
Alarion,
I see your point, and do agree with it. They do make beautiful knives, but they do not use the knife as an expression of their artistic ablility to the best of their ability. Mechanically they work flawlessly, and they fit and finish is incrediable, but the knife has to speak to you. It's like a buck 110, it's a classic, but it is plain and boring. You can't polish a ****! They could do so much more with their knives. Steve Johnson has started making folders so he has widened his horizons.

You can use the analogy of a Samuari and his sword, which was considered his soul. It was a part of him, an extension of his body and he took better care of it than anything else.
 
"Its all in the eye of the beholder" is probably the best way to say it. All of these knives are art, created by a human, to be enjoyed by other humans. I have met Steve Johnson, and have been able to play with several of his knives, and they all speak to me. I have not had the pleasure of meeting Ron Lake, but have played with a couple of his, and again they speak to me. I look at them as not only fine pieces of cutlery, but at the mechanical precision they have and to me that is art. The fact that these two ( and all others who do this ), pour themselves into making these knives, gives the knife a soul if by nothing else than default. These knives may not speak to you, thats fine; there are a lot of knives that I think are nice, but do absolutley nothing for me. Just my 2 cents -- Charles
 
but the knife has to speak to you.
Click to expand...
This is very true. I think it is all a matter of opinion. I am sure Steve Johnson's knives speak to many people, including me. But to each his own.
 
It's a matter of personal taste. Some folks respond positively to certain design criteria that others would shun.
 
I think what is being interpreted or seen as a lack of soul, are the very simple, clean, elegant designs of guys like Lake, Johnson, Busfield and the like, they rely heavily on the older, classic interframe designs that are very simple, often though adorned with top notch engraving, and ultimately they are very elegant knives with great visual appeal, despite their relative simplicity, in fact, maybe its precisely BECAUSE of their simplicity that many find them so appealing, the old adage less is more comes to mind. Complexity does not equal soul.

The fact that theyre perfectly executed to boot, is even better, and adds to the knife's appeal, not diminishes it. Extreme precision is very satisfying to many of us.

Like others have said, i think you just dont like that particular style of knife, but certainly there is plenty of room for the many that do.

I admit, when i first began collecting custom knives, i too wondered what the big fuss was about these very simple, almost plain looking knives, wondered at their seemingly very high prices, when there was no shortage of beautifully made, less expensive knives with all sorts of colors, materials, features, very complex damascus, etc. But as my tastes changed, or evolved, i realized why the knives by Lake and others were so prized, they have a certain sense of style thats very basic, very clean, almost flowing and organic, and when nicely done, makes for a very appealing knife, particularly when beautifully engraved. A design can be simple, and still have "soul". In fact, some of the most organic, smooth, and attractive knives i have seen, knives i would call "soulfull" were relatively simple, and yet very elegant and aesthetic, and its their very simplicity and clean nature that makes them so attractive to me. Do i like some of the bold, colorful, complex knives i see, yes i do, but i also like and appreciate the very simple, elegant designs as well, i enjoy having both types in my collection, and certainly any collection has room for both.

Look at these 2 pictures, one, the Lake, the essense of the clean, simple knife, the other is a complex knife by Lerch, both beautiful to my eyes.

RonLakeTiger.jpg

Lerch%201.jpg
 
Sometimes a knife having a soul has more to do the with the individual holding it then the maker who built it. Sometime it is just the maker that causes the knife to have no soul, sometimes its you!

This is not a simple issue either. A knifemaker I know (or at least think I know ;) ) is much more apt to cause an extrememe of the soul versus no soul question. Why, some (thankfully a small group) knifemakers are just not nice individuals. We all have run across them - no names PLEASE! We also have met some of the nicest people on the planet that just happen to be knifemakers. Someone you genuinely like is more apt to produce a knife that appeals to you for reasons beyond the actual construction itself. Call it bias if you will but, look at your own collection. You most likely collect certain makers who are not alone in their style of knife or level of quality and construction. Why don't you collect the others?

With knifemakers you do not know personally, there has to be something there that you can see to give the knife a soul. If I don't appreciate artsy knives, they why wouldn't I find them to have no soul? My tastes have changed over the years so, what I look for (or at least see) in a knife is different now then it was then. Even if the knife is the same exact one, I am looking for different qualities. They knife I really thought was great before may now be average in my eyes. Is this the fault of the maker or a fact that what I appreciate has changed with time? Heck I may even be a better judge of knives and their build quality :) which can be an influence on me and my evaluation of the knife.

The great thing about custom knives, is that no matter what you value, there are probably several knifemakers out there who are capable of making a knife that will blow you away at a price you can afford. There will be others that will totally underwhelm you even though they may be technically better knifemakers then the ones you treasure so much.

Whether the knife has a soul or not, has as much to do with you as it does with the knifemaker who made it.
 
Are you going to tell me this is a knife that isn't alive? I have never had the privilege of handling one of SRJ knives but I will add one to my collection someday. :)
 
This thread just goes to show you that we tend to see different things when we look at knives. When I saw that Lake and Johnson knives were being accused of having no soul, my jaw just about hit the ground. I couldn't disagree more. Maybe it is the near perfection of these knives that leads some to have this feeling, I am not sure. All I know is that the knives of these makers that I have seen certainly say something to me. I have not had the chance to hold a Love knife, but have had that pleasure with a couple of Johnson knives. There is just something about how these knives feel in the hand that tells you that they are special.

Everyone looks at things with their own eyes and has different perceptions. I can accept that someone would regard these makers knives as having no soul. Hopefully they can accept the fact that I disagree totally with that conclusion.
 
Speaking of special knives with "soul", Steve very rarely makes a stick tang knife, but he is making me something similar to this one. Coming from my close friend and knifemaking mentor, it will be a "cold" item I will just have to resign myself to living with:D

srjstick03.jpg
 
No amount of 'want' will give a knife soul...

No matter how 'clean' or precise a knife is will give it soul...

No matter how 'famous' a knife maker is will give it soul...

No amount of 'appeal' or decoration will give a knife soul...

No picture will tell you if a knife has soul...

It doesn't even have to be in your heart to have soul, but it helps...

I picked up a handmade by Bill Harsey, made for Al MAr, the 'Shiva'...I couldn't afford it, but it 'whispered' to me...it had soul, and so it came home with me...

I picked up a Browning P-35 Hi-Power that I had no previous interest in, but it too whispered to me, it had soul...and now we are as one...

Soul is, when 'it' whispers to you...not to him, not to her, and not to them...when it whispers to you, then it has soul.

Until then, it's soul less, and will forever remain so.

It doesn't matter who makes it, or how nice it is...if you hear the whisper, then you will know, it has soul...

Mel

p.s. We collect Randall's. A few of them whisper too, but most of them don't.
 
Frankly, having been around custom knives for nearly 25 years, and admired Steve and Ron's knives for nearly that long, I have to say that you are very uninformed in your judgement of their knives.
 
Originally posted by UW Mitch
Maybe the fact that Ron Lake and Steve Johnson built nearly flawless knives creates the illusion to you that they have no soul. In every knife I own I am able to find minor blems. Most of the time I can figure out what happened while they were making the knife to create that blem...if I can't figure it out I ask them. Perhaps this kind of thing is what you interpret as "soul" - humans make little mistakes now and again - it comes out in their work.

I've talked to Ron Lake and held one of those near perfect knives. He was very particular about me not calling them perfect. He said it had it's flaws - but for the life of me I couldn't find them. His work is simply amazing and the amount of detail and precision that goes into them is incredible. I personally would have to disagree with your assertion that they have no soul.

~Mitch
Click to expand...

And you are right to do so :)
What I'm speaking of is something very personal and can't be put as an absolute.
Anyway it isn't just something about finish. I know other knifemakers which make knives with a "perfect" finish, but they are more "alive" than the one from Johnson and Lake, at least for me.
But, as said, is a very personal thing. I didn't ask you if you find Lake's or Johnson's work "soulless". I asked if you ever found the work of somebody that seemed soulless to you.
Maybe I did it wrong to post immediately my opinion, I should have waited some feedback before saying my point of view :)

Anyway, the lake and SRJ knives posted have engravings, and these can't be taken into account, as they are "add-ons" (please, don't take this wrong: I just mean that a knife by A with engraving from B is not just A's work anymore).
And it's not just about simple lines too. I've seen knives with very, extremely simple lines and almost no decoration and they spoke to me.
Truly, maybe I just don't understand the language SRJ and Lake knives use, so I think they don't "speak" but, as said, is a very personal opinion. I just wanted to know if this happens to you, and why, and which are the makers which cause you such effect which, taken the sheer amount of work and skill needed to make a knife, is IMHO pretty strange :)
 
Yikes. I'm somewhat stunned.

When I was doing strictly stock removal I was told by a well-known maker that stock removal knives are dead and have no soul.

That really pissed me off. And now, that I forge nearly everything, do I feel that I can make a knife with soul while I could not before? NO!!! I spent VERY MUCH blood, sweat, and tears on the stock removal knives, just as I do with the forged ones now.

I think perhaps the fact that Ron and Steve are very repeatable gave you this notion of souless knives???

You feel that they are not reaching their potential... I couldn't disagree more. Granted they could perhaps explore other styles...but then they wouldn't be making knives in THEIR STYLE. In other words, they wouldn't be THEMSELVES. If you can't see "the man behind the knives" with them, then you just aren't looking in the right light.

Want to know a little secret? A lot of makers that make fancy over-the-top knives do it because they CANNOT make a "simple" clean knife as well as someone such as Ron or Steve. I can only dig and claw and strive for the day that nearly any knife-nut would readily regard my work as "perfectly executed" so readily as Steve and Ron.

And knives whispering? Hmmm...........

Nick
 
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