No soul

I don't think Alarion quite expressed himself in a constructive manner. I think he would have been better off saying X maker really impressed him because of the special knife he made. I still do not understand why he didn't name the knifemaker he likes and state the reason he likes him and stop right there.

Perhaps a visit to the upcoming Milano Show and a little time actually talking to makers about what, how and why they make knives might give Alarion a better appreciation of the heart and soul nearly all knifemakers put into each and every knife. Sure, for some makers it has become just a job and repetition and the need to feed the family will do that, but just the act of creating something with your own hands when all there was before was raw materials is an amazing feeling every single knifmaker has experienced and most experience on every knife they make. I certainly do. I stare at my hands all the time and ask them, "How in the hell did you do that?":):):)

They only talk back to me at the Blade Show when Rob has taken me to new levels of alcohol poisoning:D
 
Joss, would it be Trollish if this was his first post on Steve Johnson's forum?
 
I think it all comes down to feeling - what feeling/emotion does any particular knife elicit in an individual. I buy/collect (60 to 70K over last 6/7 years) knives that give me an emotion/feeling when I see/handle them - ones that didn't were traded. Every SR Johnson knife I've seen and the few that I've been lucky to handle has elicited strong desires to possess and use - it goes way beyond the pure excellence of his work - pure lust! Whereas I have not seen/handled a Lake, Busfield, Hoel, Kious or Jernigan that I would want to buy/own. They are outrageously wonderful, gorgeous, phenominal and many more similar adjectives knives that are the epitome of design, skill & excellence and worth every penny! But would I want to spend my hard-earned money on one of them - NO! I can appreciate everything about them but they are not knives I have an interest in owning. I would rather have 7/8 of Tom's TNT's than a Lake - Tom's knives give me chills just looking at them - I can't get through a day without handling my TNT at least once as with a number others I particularly love. I can't explain why a TNT elicits desire & lust to own/handle while a Lake, KIous,Hoel etc. elicits appreciation and awe but no desire to own. To paraphrase Popeye "I likes what I likes!"
 
You really have to "bond" with the knife or you will probably end up selling it, I know I do. I agre with what Penguinva has to say. The knife has to give me that certain almost electric jolt the minute I see it and then pick it up and hold it. I can tell in that instant whether it is a keeper or not. There is that little catch in your breathing when you finally unwrap the knife and actually see it for the first time. Now you probably know which three makers give me that feeling and you would be dead on the money. The last J.W. Smith knife I received was the 6th one of his I had gotten and it still invoked those feelings in me! Several weeks back I got a surprise package from Les Robertson, a Carson/Vanguard E&E that I ordered a couple months earlier and sorta put on the back burner--you should have seen my face when I opened it and realized what it was. Even though I didn't see my face I'm sure I had a smile from ear to ear. I was totally awed! Same thing when I first opened the pouch containing the J.W. Smith Revolution/Vanguard. I will be this way next week when a large Model 2 Obenauf with satin bolsters and blade along with carbon fiber scales arrives to me from Les. I simply love that feeling!
 
Originally posted by tom mayo
If you had ANY idea how much time, effort, and EXPERIENCE went into making every single one (thats single, as in they make them ONE AT AT TIME) of the knives that Steve and Ron make, you would have NEVER posted such a dumbass statement! :rolleyes:
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I have a very, very clear idea. Nonetheless, they don't speak to me, though I like very much the workmanship (obviously) and even the design.
Read my other posts and Mike post over yours, and you'll have a clearer view of what I was saying.
I don't deny that probably I could have said it better, but it can't also be denied that here's a lot of people that makes little or no effort about understanding what others are saying and "see red" at the first glimpse of ciriticism.
 
I really do not understand why some of you are so offended by what Alarion posted. He is not bashing any makers. He went out of his way to complement Steve and Rons work. He just finds it to be, what I would say as, cold.

Its just a matter of taste. It does not mean that one person has more than another. It just simply is.

Personally I find most stainless knives to be rather cold. That includes my work as well.

It does not matter how much work the maker puts into a knife or how popular that maker is. If the collector finds it to be cold, then it is cold to that collector. And all collectors are differant. The next guy could fall madly in love with the same knife. Who is right, who is wrong?

Many of you have stated the Alarion does not know what he is talking about. How foolish is that? He is speaking of how a knife impacts him. I am sure that is an area that he knows very well.

Alarion is a knife buyer. He, and the thousands like him, make guys like Lake possible. Why attack him for his thoughts and feelings? To a knife buyer no maker is above reproach.

In the end, buy what you like. Do not just follow the crowd like a bunch of Lemmings. If you only buy knives that in some way speak to you, you will never regret a single purchase.
 
Originally posted by PhilL
Dogman, my compliments to you for the restraint you've shown in responding to this thread. I wonder if by default your knives won't have soul either, in his opinion. Or if a collaboration with Ricardo Vellarde will detract from that knife also. I don't know if this guy is a Troll or not, but this thread is Trollish in nature. I wonder what would happpen if he started this same thread on Mr Johnson's forum.
http://www.ckdforums.com/forumdisplay.php?s=&forumid=12

After rereading this, I'm convinced his intention was to start some heat and now in a troll like manner he's backpeddling and saying he didn't say the things he said, or that some of us don't understand his intentions here. Or worse yet that someone is trying to take away his right to free speech...Hogwash!

I don't like Negative people, this thread could have easily had a positive spin to it (Example: "What maker's knive have the most Soul for you?"). But that wouldn't satisfy a troll now would it?
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Before going around calling people a troll you could have taken the disturb of using the "search" option on the forum and have a look to the other posts that person made. Trolls are usually trolls whatever they say, and have that habit of setting aflame threads.
I even said I was sorry and admitted my mistake, about how I started the thread. But obviously you are the kind of person that won't let somebody who dared express an opinion different from yours away with a simple "sorry", once you hooked them. You are the kind of guy who takes it out to the main street to shoot it out, isn't it?
Instead of launching "j'accuse" and trying to mob the forum against other people (which IS indeed a violation of the freedom of speech, and one that can be very easily denied in a very hypocrital way) you could have simply used the "report this post to a moderator" link.
You can do it now, it's never too late, you know?

But speaking about negative people, you are so "positive" you didn't leave the benefit of doubt. Any experienced internet user should know that written communication may make a phrase came out much worst than it was intended by its writer, and that posts that get to our nerves should always be given the benefit of doubt.
And you tell me I'm negative?
Listen: it came out badly and took to your nerves, ok? Sorry for this.
It can happen and a simple opinion on a forum is not worth all this bad feelings. Take this as a virtual "stretched hand".
Shake it or leave it. I understand one can't be liked by everybody and can live with it, but I prefer to be in peace with other people :)

edited (the second time) to add:
PhilL:
I agree with you: posted on Johnson forum this would have been trollish but you'll agree with me that where and when you post something has a lot to do with being trollish. And in fact I didn't post it there for two reasons: first, I didn't even know Johnson had a forum, second it would be pointless (and trollish) to post I have a negative opinion on the maker's himself forum. It makes sense if posted in a "neutral" forum to get feedback, though. Even if I could have put it better.
 
Gentlemen, this is about art.
Art evokes strong emotion.
One of the hardest things I had to learn, as an artist, is how to accept critisism.
And that is where this thread is going.

I understand what Alarion is trying to say (methinks) and I think his "mistake" was mentioning names. I don't think that he was downtalking RL or SRJ, just using them as examples of art that didn't appeal to him I didn't think that he was critisizing (sp?) either maker.

To use my own personal example...for years I couldn't understand all the hub-bub about Loveless (gasp). Walked right by 'em. I mean they're nice knives but those over there are way cool-er...
Now that I've learned more, I am beginning to see them in a different light.

I do agree that the post could've been made in a more positive tone. Maybe "Why don't these knives speak to me?" or
"What make you say Ugnh when you see a knife?"
I try to be a 'glass half full' kinda guy.
:)
 
Keith Montgomery is right on the bullseye, both with the misunderstanding and the fact that probably, as I myself said later, I shouldn't have said anything about MY tastes, to have a clearer view of other's.
I don't think to have expressed my opinion as "objective", as I used all the verbs and nouns that mean in a phrase "my opinion" but since a lot of people misunderstood this, it's self evident that I should have been clearer on this point (i.e. that it was my opinion only). I do it now for, I guess, the third time. It's just my opinion.
Anyway, I don't feel I "attacked" RL or SJ in any way. I didn't say "their work is sloppy" or anything else objectively negative. I just said that to me their knives are soulles, they don't speak to me. It's not an absolute in any way, nor I pretend it to be: I'm mathematically sure there is a lot of people who thinks the contrary. I just wanted to know their opinion on which knives did this to them. And while I don't pretend my opinion be an absolute, I can see others does, as they see my different tastes as an attack to their Truth, or even the work of these makers, which it isn't. I said many times that their work is superb, and actually like aesthetically their knives, they just seem to lack, TO ME, that certain "quid" which stirs your heart when you see or handle one.

Anyway, I'll stop answering denigrating posts. I didn't post this to fight out a simple personal opinion with a lot of people who won't even take the disturb of trying to understand what I was meaning.
I wanted to debate about a topic and will do so.


So, back to the theme:
correctly was said "de gustibust non est disputandum", but I don't think we are speakeing about "tastes" here. I mean, not in the normal sense. And indeed, as said, I actually like RL and SJ knives, from an aesthetic point of view. There may be a knife you don't like because it speaks "badly" to you. I found some, either cold and distant as a haughty noblewoman or excessively gaudy as an old brothel mistress. But there are some that, well, simply say nothing, even if they are actually aesthetically pleasing.
 
Originally posted by dogman
I don't think Alarion quite expressed himself in a constructive manner. I think he would have been better off saying X maker really impressed him because of the special knife he made. I still do not understand why he didn't name the knifemaker he likes and state the reason he likes him and stop right there.

Perhaps a visit to the upcoming Milano Show and a little time actually talking to makers about what, how and why they make knives might give Alarion a better appreciation of the heart and soul nearly all knifemakers put into each and every knife. Sure, for some makers it has become just a job and repetition and the need to feed the family will do that, but just the act of creating something with your own hands when all there was before was raw materials is an amazing feeling every single knifmaker has experienced and most experience on every knife they make. I certainly do. I stare at my hands all the time and ask them, "How in the hell did you do that?":):):)

They only talk back to me at the Blade Show when Rob has taken me to new levels of alcohol poisoning:D
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Dogman: you bet I'll be at Milano show :D :D :D
The show is becoming every year more interesting. I wouldn't miss it if not due to very serious reasons (like direct meteorite impact or alien abduction, as I said to a certain maker :D)
Apart from the fact that I have to be there as writer for the Italian knife magazine "Coltelli", I'll be there to get a knife from Scott Slobodian and to have a talk with him, Francesco Pachi' and Santino Ballestra and all the others I'll manage to bother :D.
I had the privilege of visiting Pachi' at his home last week, I had to get back a knife of his which I gave back to him and he was so kind to adjust in a minor detail, and he showed me his lab and some of his knives, a joy for the eyes :D.
 
In fact, I'd go so far as to say that the responses here have really been an eye opener for me with regards to how I'll perceive some of my fellow forumites from now on.

Alarion stated an opinion that I fully agree with, paraphrased, that a knife had to have 'soul', to be able to reach in and touch you as a buyer, or it was nothing but cold, dead, soul less steel.

And then the 'Keepers of the true and only faith' ran forth to do damage control, to cast stones at the 'non-believers'...and that's just so much freaking bullsh*t!

Some of you makers, and some of you collectors, make me very sad, and really pissed off at the same time. Why in the phuck are you making and/or collecting knives if not for the soul? For money? Jesus, is that all it means to you?

Art, R.W., Keith, and N2S, I think you guys 'get it', but some of the others here? I have my doubts!

It 'is' about 'soul', the feeling that you get when you pick up a certain knife...that electric pulse, that buzz, the 'whisper'...this, for me at least, is very, very real.

I dunno, I could be really off track here...but in the last three years, as we finished off collections of RMK/AMK/A-F knife collections that a good friend started; we've become somewhat familiar with nice knives via the west coast knife shows.

Knife Expo, Blade West, Solvang, Eugene, BAKCA, etc...10 major shows in the last 3 years, hundreds of knives held...and I know 'soul' in knives when I handle them now...some have it, most don't.

If you don't understand 'soul' in knives by now, you should leave our hobby and start doing something else. That goes for both makers and collectors!

Gawd, don't you feel it? Don't you hear it?

If not, then you are what I call a 'TV's or Toaster's' person...it doesn't matter which, as long as you make a buck...

We don't need you if that's the case.

Mel
 
Melvin: do you feel any relation, in your experience, between aestetical issues and "soul"?
WHat I mean is: maybe some simpler, more linear knives are different to "feel" for soul, maybe some more decorated ones are "easier" to feel?
As I said, in my experience it's not been so. I've found very complex and ornate knives "soulless", sterile exercises in style, while others, much simpler ones, had "it".

We seem to agree that mostly it's not a matter of maker, but that it may happen on some knives of a maker, while not on others.
And, then, the next question could be: what makes "it" happen?
Maybe being too specific with a maker about a knife you want makes him become a mere hired skilled craftsman, not leaving him express his artistic talent, being to constricted into the customer specifications?
Surely we are entitled to ask everything we want as long as we pay for the knife, but is it wise? I mean, is it right to put exacting, extremely detailed specifications on somebody who we appreciate for his artistic talent, or shouldn't we be more vague, setting a "theme" and letting the knifemaker do his part?
And when should a knifemaker refuse too detailed specifications, if he feels they won't allow him to express himself freely?
The knife we buy should be a materialization of our desires through the style and skill of the maker we choose. After all, we choose him because we did like his style. So we should leave him free to express it.
Maybe this may be cause of a "soul less" knife. A knife that we could like, but anybody else would detect as a mere "job done".

Another cause could be repeating too much the same knife? I mean, a maker makes a knife that's a big hit, and is liked by a LOT of people. Obviously LOTS of people will ask him to do it, over and over again.
It wouldn't be right to say "no", as the collector has the right to ask the maker the knife he likes most, but wouldn't be difficult for him to maintain the same enthusiasm in the design, working on it over and over again?
 
"Soul" is a tough one to quantify. I like knives with "character", knives with "personality". These things aren't easy to quantify either, but I find them suitable descriptive nouns. All knives possess these traits, it's just that, like people, some characteristics don't appeal to other people.

Somebody mentioned the Mayo TNT. I know there are people who dig this piece. It definitely has character and personality that speaks to many people. Myself, I don't see it. Would I call it "cold" or "soul-less"? No, I'd say that it doesn't have the kind of character I enjoy in a piece. But if you say you find that it has no soul, you aren't exactly correct, but you aren't exactly incorrect either. Me and the TNT will never be soul mates, that's all.

Knife enthusisasts are no different than car aficionados or music fans, it's about as subjective as it comes. There are styles that jump out and grab you, and some that just seem cold and impersonal. I find that Volvos are "boxy" and look the same, and country music is "boring" and sounds the same. Tell me that there aren't people out there who disagree wholeheartedly with me.

I don't find any problem with Alarion's post. When I first read it, I full on expected what has transpired... some who jump down his throat and some who see where he's coming from. I see where he's coming from.
 
Velitius has said it about as well as it can be said. Different knives bring out varying emotions in us, and it is a damn good thing that is the case. If not, then all knives would basically be the same, and wouldn't that be a drag?

Aesthetic issues are one part of how we feel about knives, but I do not think that they have much if anything to do with the soul of a knife. Soul is something quite apart from the looks of a knife. I don't know how to explain this, but I definitely know when it is there and when it isn't. This feeling could, and probably is, different for others than it is for me.
 
NOW I know why I like some knives more than others-they've
got SOUL. I guess that's why they make me feel special when
I carry them. Thanks to everyone in this thread for the insight.

All those with soul......raise their hands!!!!!
 
This is the first time I ever posted to a thread without reading the whole thing. The man from Italy picked two of the finest, most well respected makers in the world and criticized their overall work! I've owned SR Johnsons and love 'em. Steve's a great guy, full of soul. I never had a Lake, but it's one of the knives I aspire to have one day.

I, personally, would never publicly critisize any maker's work. They're all different and I'm glad that every one of them is making knives. Some are more skilled than others, not many if any are more skilled than Steve Johnson in the classic Loveless style.

For the man from Italy to make statements like he did shows that he is lacking something, whatever it is.
 
I do understand what Alarion is trying to get across. Very hard to do with the "written word".
Greg
 
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