No soul

[Alarion]

Please, this is not a "bash Johnson and Lake" or "defend Johnson and Lake against the iconoclasts" post.
As I've just said, may well be that it's me who can't feel anything from these knives. And, yes, I have to admit that my not being an enthusiast of Lake is due to the knives being mostly the same. But it's JUST MY OPINION, and never presented it as anything but my personal opinion, nor pretended that anybody's opinion should be like mine. And you can tell me anything about SRJ and RL knives but the fact that the knives of these two makers don't "speak" to me still remains, exactly because it's such a personal thing.
If anything this post has shown that it's difficult to even express one's opinion about certain "holy monsters" if it doesn't conform with the commonly shared one. Maybe I'm a blunt ignorant. Does this forbid that I'm entitled to have a personal opinion?

I'm just curious to know if there are knifemajers whose knives are to you soulless, just well made pieces of steel and why you feel them so.

 

[dogman]

Alarion, if you do not know the people behind the knives, it is not fair to label their work as soul-less. You were speaking in universal generalities, not in your own opinion (that is how your first post read). You are also comparing one knife that one maker made for his daughter to "regular" knives (if you could ever call their work regular) by these well known makers. Would you make the same comparison with your maker's regular knives and something special Ron or Steve made for their loved ones?

In addition, knifemaking would not be where it is today without icons like Steve or Ron. Saying they need to "expand their horizons" is like saying Ferrari needs to start making an economy car.

Everyone is entitled to an opinion - just make it an educated one.




A gaudy knife does not an art knife make

 

[blademan 13]

Alarion,

While I agree with what you basically are saying, I just think that with what you are trying to describe maybe there is a better word than "soul". What it is, I don't really know. Maybe it is just the "calling" of the knife as it appeals to one's particular tastes. Maybe what you are desribing can also be refered to as "character".

I own some knives which I would consider to have "soul" and some that are best described as being sterile and cold. I like them all. I find that my David Broadwell sub-hilt is perfectly designed and executed, it just does not exude the same warmth as my Terry Primos forged hunter. Which is the better knife? Depends on personal preferance I guess.

I guess this sort of discussion is best described via an analogy. So here it goes While a modern home can be wonderfully designed and flawlessly built, it will never IMO exude the same warmth, charm and allure of a 150 yr. old Colonial. Am I making any sense at all?

 

[PhilL]

Originally posted by dogman


Everyone is entitled to an opinion - just make it an educated one.

This has turned into an interesting thread, and of course everyone is entitled to their opinions, and most opinions aren't educated they're based on nothing. As is Alarion's. His puprose for starting this thread is beyond me, "What makers knives have no soul?"

Do you have to like every style of knife or every maker? No.
Do you have to like every knife by every well known maker or a particular knife just because it's expensive? No.

But why start a thread that's based on nothing?

For me this thread doesn't change the way I look at a Lake or Johnson knife, but it will reflect on the way I look at Alarion's posts from now on.

 

[Alarion]

Originally posted by dogman
Alarion, if you do not know the people behind the knives, it is not fair to label their work as soul-less. You were speaking in universal generalities, not in your own opinion (that is how your first post read). You are also comparing one knife that one maker made for his daughter to "regular" knives (if you could ever call their work regular) by these well known makers. Would you make the same comparison with your maker's regular knives and something special Ron or Steve made for their loved ones?

In addition, knifemaking would not be where it is today without icons like Steve or Ron. Saying they need to "expand their horizons" is like saying Ferrari needs to start making an economy car.

Everyone is entitled to an opinion - just make it an educated one.
A gaudy knife does not an art knife make

FIRST AND FOREMOST:
Just to be clear: I actually like Lake's folders and most of SJ knives. I like them a lot for their finish, and graceful design that derives its bauty from being fit to their task.
I just find they lack something, not easily explained, that other knives have.

I agree about the potential unfairness of confronting production knives to "special" knives. But I didin't bring it out for "comparison": I brought this just as an example of what I mean with "soul".
The knife in object wasn't even paticularly "techincal", but had the soul.

Second, I did never comment about RL or SRJ relevance in modern custom knife world, nor I ever said that their work is "inferior". Nor I commented about the need for RL or SJR of "expanding their orizons". That was a comment inferred from what I said by another forumite. I'd never dare to think I can say what RL or SJR should do to become better knifemakers when I myself can't get a decent blade out of a piece of steel for my life.
And I surely never spoke in universal generalities:
"I think this of the work of Steve Johnson and Ron Lake"
"I Think" seems to me pretty clear enough about the fact that it is my OPINION. Most people are used to give to their thought the chrism of universal truth, but you'll agree with me that surely I can't be held responsible for that.
I'm very cautious at making a distinction from what is my opinion and what is objective truth.

Objective truth (or "fact"): SJ and RL knives are incredibly well finished and built with excruciating accuracy and great workmanship.

My opinion: this notwithstanding I find them soulless.

As for judging their work, why in the world should I have to know them? It should be nice, sure, but my judgment about the knife communicating something about them or not could only came out as biased, if I knew them!
I wouldn't be able to tell what I know of the man from what the knife tells me about the man.

Finally, yes, I have an opinion: is it "uneducated" just because it's different from yours, or is it uneducated because it deems "soulless" the work of two of the greatest masters? I'm not a newbie in the world of custom knives and, even if I'm not, mainly due to financial matters, a great collector, I've been handling, admiring, and reading about custom knives for about 15 years, or even more. I think I'm entitled to my own opinion, and to believe that it's a pretty well informed one, after all this time, as long as I don't pretend it to be the Truth or pretend to make other think the same at all costs, don't I?


BLADEMAN 13
Interesting thought... I'll have to think over this for some time.

 

[Alarion]

Originally posted by PhilL
This has turned into an interesting thread, and of course everyone is entitled to their opinions, and most opinions aren't educated they're based on nothing. As is Alarion's. His puprose for starting this thread is beyond me, "What makers knives have no soul?"

Do you have to like every style of knife or every maker? No.
Do you have to like every knife by every well known maker or a particular knife just because it's expensive? No.

But why start a thread that's based on nothing?

For me this thread doesn't change the way I look at a Lake or Johnson knife, but it will reflect on the way I look at Alarion's posts from now on.

Hmmm... I see that giving a negative critic on some people works can get you quickly unpopular So much for freedom of speech.

That this thread is based on nothing is your opinion
But maybe that, since you don't understand what in the world I'm speaking of, while many other people seem to have understood perfectly.
Yes, you should change the way you look at my posts , you should give another read to it.
You'll see that I never asked anything like "what maker's knife has no soul". Such a question has obviously no meaning, unless we are speaking of some karmic new-age theory, which I am not. Nor I asked whether somebody should like all knives, or should like all costly knives.
In such case the questions would have been "Do you have to like every custom knife?" or "Do you have to like every expensive custom knife?".

What I DID ask instead is "Did you ever think that some maker's knives have no soul"?
I surely don't want anybody to change the way they look at anybody knives. You feel your way, I feel mine. I just wanted to know if anybody else had a feeling like this and what triggered such a reaction.


BTW: strange that a post "based on nothing" has generated two full pages of replies.

 

[Keith Montgomery]

Originally posted by Alarion

You'll see that I never asked anything like "what maker's knife has no soul". Such a question has obviously no meaning, unless we are speaking of some karmic new-age theory, which I am not.

Actually Alarion, you did ask that question. Just in not quite the same words, but you asked the question none the less.

Originally posted by Alarion


I'm just curious to know if there are knifemajers whose knives are to you soulless, just well made pieces of steel and why you feel them so.

And, by the way, freedom of speach does not guaranty that what you say will not make you unpopular for saying it. It just guaranties that you have the right to say it.

You definitely have the right to your own opinion, whether anyone else agrees with that opinion or not. All I was saying is that my opinion differs completely from yours, not that your opinion isn't valid.

Edited because I made all kinds of mistakes.

 

[Joss]

The "soul" thing always got me puzzled. I'm not sure what to think of it. What I do think is that:

- Some makers have no style. There are makers or knives that might have all the bells and whistles - blue ivory or MOP, gold, fancy damascus, whatever - and yet, they don't come together. And then there are knives, some of them just as fancy (Barry Davis folders, Kemal production, etc) or very subdued (R. Lake, SR Johnson) which in my mind have a supreme elegance.

- Some knives have no personality. It can be because they've been copied too much, or it might just be that they don't quite have the level of variety and refinement in the design & materials to separate them from the rest.

But soul? I'm not sure.

JD

 

[LHKnives]

Hmmm... this is a tough post to answer, and really there is only your personal opinion for an answer.
Normally I wouldn`t step int a thread like this, but I think he has a point, not necessarily about Lakes knives, or Johnson`s knives.
I personally have made knives That really don`t speak to me ( whisper, talk, yell, call, gravitate ) or what ever you want to call it, but with the same knife I`ve put on my site, and have had a guy say he "needs" it, doesn`t know why, but has to have it....Personal preference.
Not every maker makes the perfect knife for everyone out there, and variety is the spice of life If we were all the same, life would be quite boring.
If this post were to be which makers...( hmm mental note to be careful here )work talks to you, you`d have to actually go to specific knives, post pics and everything. Now you would get pics from Johnson, Lake, Fowler, Fisk, Little Hen Knives but not everyone would say the knife that "mr x" posted of the "Little Hen Knives" knife would have soul, or speak to them, some may even say it has no soul...
I see that alot of people are defending there tastes, and that is fine you are entitled to your own opinion. I think if we want to call this "feeling" soul ( and I`m sure we all know what he really means by this ) we could just answer this thread by maybe changing the thread name to " which knives have soul to you "
as soon as you "bash" peoples work ( maybe bash isn`t the right word but as soon as you judge anothers work ) there will be people defending their tastes and some that agree, and some that say what the heck is he talking about, especially when the "big names" are involved. ( and I say that with the most respect to all the makers out there )
In closing, I say just be true to your feelings, and don`t be afraid to let your personal opinion out, but don`t let others opinion cloud yours.

WOW now that was long winded!

 

[Megalobyte]

Someone else touched on this, but it bears repeating. Of course you have the right to state your opinion, and the very fact is, you did state it, it was not censored and thus, your right to free speech worked as it should. But, you cant state an opinion that in effect, attacks the work of 2 of the most respected members of the knife community and honestly expect to NOT provoke reactions. Free speech says you can say, for example, our founding father, Thomas Jefferson was a liar and a hypocrite, it does NOT say you wont get a LOT of reactions from people who love freedom and by extension our founding fathers. From what i gather, Lake and Johnson are among the founding fathers of the knife world and to attack their work, and yes, stating their work, to you, lacks soul, is asking for it, and you should not be at all surprised when you get a strong reaction.

Now, i have a confession to make. I too once posted something that was somewhat disparaging to Ron Lake's knives, i wondered aloud at what could possibly justify their very high prices, and i posted a picture of a very plain looking, yet very expensive Lake folder as evidence, now this is when i had just begun collecting custom knives and knew very little about them, and i was suitably blasted for it, and rightfully so, my post was uneducated, and i had no first hand experience with his work, only pictures on the net, whereas your opinion, at least, is based on actual experience. So, i know what its like to inadvertantly provoke a reaction, however, arguably, i didnt know any better, i didnt really know who Ron Lake was in the knife world, whereas after 15 years of custom knife collecting, you knew or should have known that calling 2 such giant's work soulless would stir things up, so dont be so "hurt" when you get the reaction you should have expected. Free speech protects your right to say what you think, it doesnt in any way prevent anyone from strongly disagreeing with you. After all, they enjoy that same freedom.

Now having said all that, below is a picture of a $4500 Lake folder, and while i have definitely learned to appreciate the simplicity, elegance and flawless execution of a knife like this, I can, nonetheless, think of, right now, 3 different, beautifully made custom knives that i would rather own than this Lake, the difference being, I could own ALL 3 for the price of the Lake. You can get an awfully nice knife for $1500 these days and thus, for ME and ME alone, its hard to justify the Lake's price. Now, thats just MY opinion, and you all most definitely have the right to differ.

Here is but one of the 3 knives i prefer to the Lake, an engraved Martin black pearl interframe, one I have had my eye on for some time, and this one is $1200. Is the Lake $3300 the more appealing knife? Who knows, I personally dont think so, but again, thats MY sense of taste and value, reasonable men can differ and that's whats great, we have so much to choose from, so many styles, so many price ranges that we can all be satisfied.

 

[Mike Hull]

Originally posted by Alarion
Hmmm... I see that giving a negative critic on some people works can get you quickly unpopular So much for freedom of speech.

Freedom of speech, does not guarantee freedom from consequences!

 

[Joss]

Originally posted by Alarion
What I DID ask instead is "Did you ever think that some maker's knives have no soul"?
I surely don't want anybody to change the way they look at anybody knives. You feel your way, I feel mine. I just wanted to know if anybody else had a feeling like this and what triggered such a reaction.

BTW: strange that a post "based on nothing" has generated two full pages of replies.

That's not quite what you did - you gave two specific examples, and people reacted to that rather than to the substance of your question. Maybe the question would have gone more smoothly without examples.

JD

 

[Keith Montgomery]

Joss, to me a knife having soul means this; It means that when I see one of these knives it brings out an emotion in me. It has more to it than the sum of it's parts. There is a feeling you get when you see and handle these knives that there is a part of the maker in them. A part that makes these knives something more than cold pieces of steel. Knives can have a personality and a soul. (I bet that if someone that wasn't into knives read what I just posted, they would wonder what planet I was from.)

No matter how beautiful they are, or how well made, there are knives that bring out no emotion in us. They leave us cold. The knives that do this will be different for each of us. For Alarion the knives of Ron Lake and SR Johnson are in this group.

What Alarion posted is not wrong. In his opinion the knives of these makers do not say anything to him. They do not elicit any emotion. They leave him cold. It is my opinion that what Alarion wanted us to know was that it was his opinion and not necessarily the opinion of anyone else that the knives of these two great makers had no soul. The problem for me arises from my perception that he is stating his opinion more as fact.

It is probably correct that leaving the names of the makers out would have been a more apropos way to address this subject.

(I have seen knives, some of them from very highly regarded makers, that I feel have no soul. They leave me cold. Is it just me or do any of the rest of you feel the same way?)

Maybe that might have been a better way to broach this subject, I don't know. What I do think though, is that Alarion has been misunderstood and therefore is taking some underserved heat. My opinion on the knives of these makers differs greatly from Alarion's, but who's to say I'm right? I have also seen knives made by some of the great makers that leave me with the feeling that they have no soul, and no I will not name the makers.

 

[tom mayo]

If you had ANY idea how much time, effort, and EXPERIENCE went into making every single one (thats single, as in they make them ONE AT AT TIME) of the knives that Steve and Ron make, you would have NEVER posted such a dumbass statement!

 

[RARanney]

Freedom of speech is a two way street. Soul is a very vague term. One may prefer one style over another, but it is only that--preference. To me, Mssrs. Lake and Johnson produce knives that are (to borrow another phrase) "elegant in their simplicity". That they are also flawlessly fitted and finished goes without saying.

 

[APM]

Too much Soul is more like it, both those makers are at the top of the game IMO and everyone knows it, that's why they sell for so much and fast, end of story! Clean precise lines, outstanding fit and feel, well balanced pieces of knife making to the highest degree, well suited for a Museum Modern Art!

James

 

[marcangel]

There is no doubt that these two makers are ICONS of knife collecters, and have certainly contributed a part of their OWN souls to the works they have created. I think alot of this boils down to an individual's taste, just like any other art form. I personally think Picasso sucks, and believe it or not there are some very respected art collectors who agree with me! As an Al Mar collector, I kind of get a feel for what is trying to be said. Alot of the older Al Mar pieces had "soul", not all of them but certainly a number of them. The Osprey comes to mind, the old ones were manufactured by Moki, just as the new ones are, nearly identical designs, but they just don't have the same "je ne sais quois as the frogs would say about them. Ron Lake is a pioneer, like Moran, and Loveless. I certainly respect those makers and their work, but it just doesn't appeal to me the way Warren Osborne or Jim Minnick or J.W. Smith does. I was doing an inventory of my collection today and was stunned that I'd spent about $12,000 in knives in the last two years. I have about 16 handmade knives, some have been incredible bargains, where others I wish I'd never bought. I doubt many would ever say they wish they'd "never bought" a Loveless, Moran, or Lake. There is something to be said about that .

 

[not2sharp]

What is the essence of soul?

To me it comes down to an emotional sub-conscious reassurance that the knife has been made for a specific purpose. It is not just a well made gent's knife, or bowie, or hunter; it is a knife that seems to belong somewhere. A hunter that immediately takes you to the African plains, or, to late fall start of northern deer hunt; perhaps a simple pen knife that seems a perfect fit in a 19th century parlor. Anyone can make a Bowie style knife, but few can make one that seems ideally suited to fit life on the Mississippi during the 1830s.

What are your views on soul?

n2s

 

[PhilL]

Dogman, my compliments to you for the restraint you've shown in responding to this thread. I wonder if by default your knives won't have soul either, in his opinion. Or if a collaboration with Ricardo Vellarde will detract from that knife also. I don't know if this guy is a Troll or not, but this thread is Trollish in nature. I wonder what would happpen if he started this same thread on Mr Johnson's forum.
http://www.ckdforums.com/forumdisplay.php?s=&forumid=12

After rereading this, I'm convinced his intention was to start some heat and now in a troll like manner he's backpeddling and saying he didn't say the things he said, or that some of us don't understand his intentions here. Or worse yet that someone is trying to take away his right to free speech...Hogwash!

I don't like Negative people, this thread could have easily had a positive spin to it (Example: "What maker's knive have the most Soul for you?"). But that wouldn't satisfy a troll now would it?

 

[Joss]

Originally posted by PhilL
I don't know if this guy is a Troll or not, but this thread is Trollish in nature.
...
After rereading this, I'm convinced his intention was to start some heat and now in a troll like manner he's backpeddling and saying he didn't say the things he said, or that some of us don't understand his intentions here. Or worse yet that someone is trying to take away his right to free speech...Hogwash!
...
But that wouldn't satisfy a troll now would it?

This is pretty stupid. A troll with 491 posts? Alarion is no troll, and I certainly don't think this post is trollish in any way.

JD