"No unnecessary weight in the poll."

[FortyTwoBlades]

How so? There are countless axes that operate on similar principles. I'd be very interested in your reasoning and/or refutation of concepts thus far presented. Is it different than a lot of axes? Yup. Is it a vintage ad for a product? Yup. But does that mean that it's inherently not based on solid engineering principles? Nope. Just a different design approach than a lot of axes produced for the domestic American market because it was designed for a different context of use and prioritized feature preferences.

Now, I posted this specifically because it flies in the face of modern axe culture paradigm, but here features that are commonly looked upon negatively today are being framed in a distinctly positive light, and there are reasons behind it--most of them strictly functional. There are a lot of different ways to make a good axe, and they all have different strengths and weaknesses.

 

[HeavyHanded]

Aside from marketing speculation, I'd imagine the weight reduction at the poll would result in a good chopper that essentially does not have a functional poll. It looks like it could collapse or deform if used too hard.

About the time this design came out, steel manufacturing was in the process of slow but steady improvement in quality. Somewhere I've seen a series of axe heads viewed from overhead showing the evolution of the steel thickness around the eye as steel quality got better. This may be a development along those lines.

Also, we're looking at a drawing that may or may not reflect the true proportions.

 

[Park Swan]

A discussion involving "simple physics" and axes would be great if you and/or "Mr. FortyTwo" would ever care to go in that direction. :thumbup:

Bob

Tone unnecessary :thumbup:. I don't know if you ever surfed this forum before your join date, but there have been many threads that go much deeper into discussions than is necessary.
The balance of the axe head is a function of two main factors: the shape of the axe head itself, and the orientation of the axis of balance. Adjusting either will affect the balance.

 

[Steve Tall]

The reason for small polls, as given in an Australian newspaper article from 1924:

"The poll or head, useful in hard continuous bush work, is an encumbrance in speedy soft-wood chopping. Champions want the weight in front of the eye... About the first thing a champion wood-chopper does with his new axe is to hacksaw or rasp off some of the metal in the poll behind the eye. Most champions' axes have little more metal in the poll than is necessary to hold the axe together."

quoted from
With Axe and Saw. Bush Champions Discussed. by A.G. Stephens
The Western Mail [Perth], 19 June 1924, page 29
http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article37635896

 

[FortyTwoBlades]

The reason for small polls, as given in an Australian newspaper article from 1924:

"The poll or head, useful in hard continuous bush work, is an encumbrance in speedy soft-wood chopping. Champions want the weight in front of the eye... About the first thing a champion wood-chopper does with his new axe is to hacksaw or rasp off some of the metal in the poll behind the eye. Most champions' axes have little more metal in the poll than is necessary to hold the axe together."

quoted from
With Axe and Saw. Bush Champions Discussed. by A.G. Stephens
The Western Mail [Perth], 19 June 1924, page 29
http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article37635896

Good find. Here's another: click

 

[Hacked]

So reduced weight, wide blade, and a steep ramp is it possible these axes were specifically designed for chopping softwood with the intent of keeping the cheeks from becoming buried? The design features and the refferce to "Speedy Soft-Wood chopping" in the article Steve posted seem to point in that direction. In that case the design might not be the best for the East coast where I live. We have soft wood here but a lot of hardwood as well.

 

[FortyTwoBlades]

Yup--optimized for use in softwoods to bite deep while clearing the chip properly.

 

[rjdankert]

Tone unnecessary :thumbup:. . .

What does this relate too? I can only guess that anyone who feels "tone unnecessary" regarding my post is reacting from the gut and not the brain. I'm simply saying I would like to see a disscussion involving the latter. This requires mathematical descriptions of physical properties (forces, balance, etc.) with approiate references to scientific literature, text books, etc.

If no forum members wish to participate in such a discussion, then it simply won't happen - the end. I'm just stating my personal preference.

. . . I don't know if you ever surfed this forum before your join date,. . .

I most certainly have. My join date is Mar 2011 and yours is shown as Mar 2016. What's your point?

. . .but there have been many threads that go much deeper into discussions than is necessary. . .

How is this determined?

. . .The balance of the axe head is a function of two main factors: the shape of the axe head itself, and the orientation of the axis of balance. Adjusting either will affect the balance.

What do you mean by the "balance of the axe head"?

What is "the axis of balance" of an axe head and what is the effect of changing the "orientation" (I would assume change in three dimensions)? Do you have equations to compute these?


Bob

 

[FortyTwoBlades]

The axle (also known as the axis of rotational balance) is always a straight line from the grip point through the center of gravity. It is usually impractical to alter the location of the center of gravity, and therefore it is easier to change the grip point. Changing the grip point causes the formation of a new axle. If one were to chuck up the axe in a lathe along any of its (infinite) axles, it would spin true and vibration-free. Depending on where your grip point/axle is, the presentation of the bit relative to your stroke will be impacted.

Finding all of this information, luckily, requires no equations or computation--you just need to find where your center of gravity is. If it lays external to the body of the object you can find it by pinching it at two different points, along with a plumb line. Where those two plumb lines would intersect is where your center of gravity is. Once you know where the center of gravity is, you then know that your axle then lays in a straight line from your grip point through the center of gravity.

 

[Park Swan]

What does this relate too? I can only guess that anyone who feels "tone unnecessary" regarding my post is reacting from the gut and not the brain. I'm simply saying I would like to see a disscussion involving the latter. This requires mathematical descriptions of physical properties (forces, balance, etc.) with approiate references to scientific literature, text books, etc.

If no forum members wish to participate in such a discussion, then it simply won't happen - the end. I'm just stating my personal preference.

I most certainly have. My join date is Mar 2011 and yours is shown as Mar 2016. What's your point?

How is this determined?

What do you mean by the "balance of the axe head"?

What is "the axis of balance" of an axe head and what is the effect of changing the "orientation" (I would assume change in three dimensions)? Do you have equations to compute these?

Bob

I will defer to FortyTwo here because I don't have the time right now to get into this discussion at the level you require, and he's said that is already in the process of generating diagrams. I really do want to go deeper but right now I have Christmas orders

In regards to the questions you posed, the reason for asking your join date was made clear, was it not? I would search for some threads if I had more time.

Determined? I'm not sure what you're asking, that statement is clearly my opinion.

As specific as you seem interested in being, it seems it would be necessary to agree on some consensus before moving forward at all. I know what I mean by balance of the axe head, and I generally know what others mea by the same term as it relates to this discussion, but your standards may call for some measurement which could apply to different types of axes- I don't know how one would establish this sort of consistency, or what type of axe would be considered a control.

I am not interested in equations for this sort of thing, I really don't see that going anywhere useful.

 

[FortyTwoBlades]

An early blog post of mine (when I had just hit upon this method of finding the CoG) can be seen here. I made the realization (which probably any engineer could have probably told me) when trying to analyze the balance of scythes, not axes, but applying the concept to the comparatively simplistic tool was easy. You don't need to actually use photo overlays like this, but it allowed me to show in images what I can visualize in my head when just doing a simple two-point suspension check of a tool. Just imagine the lines' intersection and you'll know where the CoG is. Things start getting a bit more complex once you have two grip points that don't lie along the same axle--and even more so when you have three, rare as that may be. Basically you go from the dynamic of a line (2 point: CoG and one grip point) to a plane (3 point) to a polyhedron (4 or more points.)

 

[Square_peg]

And then there's this, a 5 pound Plumb rafting axe with a massive waffled poll.

 

[FortyTwoBlades]

And a beauty it is! Just optimized for a totally different context of use.

 

[Square_peg]

Trust me, it'll chop soft woods just fine........

 

[FortyTwoBlades]

Oh I'm sure it does. There's a difference between a tool being capable of a task in a given context and being optimized for it.

 

[300Six]

Ask members on here if/when the bottom, or the top, sawed off of a sledgehammer head is going to perform like it did before. It won't. Evolution of 'balanced' heads of hammers and axes is not an accident and various gimmicks over the years, that imply otherwise, never have caught on for practical reasons.
42Blades; give up on all the wordy BS in trying to defend this novel manufacture practice.
Competition choppers in northern Spain, as well as with some quirky Australians, have subscribed into the 'poll-less axe' business but guaranteed they've also learned to hang on tight to their handles while they're swinging and they've become intimately aware of 'center of balance'; unlike the 'average stiff' (namely most of us) that wields an axe once in awhile and wants no (nor is prepared for) surprises.

 

[FortyTwoBlades]

Ask members on here if/when the bottom, or the top, sawed off of a sledgehammer head is going to perform like it did before. It won't. Evolution of 'balanced' heads of hammers and axes is not an accident and various gimmicks over the years, that imply otherwise, never have caught on for practical reasons.
42Blades; give up on all the wordy BS in trying to defend this novel manufacture practice.
Competition choppers in northern Spain, as well as with some quirky Australians, have subscribed into the 'poll-less axe' business but guaranteed they've also learned to hang on tight to their handles while they're swinging and they've become intimately aware of 'center of balance'; unlike the 'average stiff' (namely most of us) that wields an axe once in awhile and wants no (nor is prepared for) surprises.

300six Have you taken the time to actually try to understand the concept being discussed? If you want to refute my assertions, present a counter argument instead of hand-waving. If it's BS like you claim, it should be easy for you, no?

Symmetrical-headed hammers are made primarily to simplify the manufacture of both their heads and handles because under the majority of circumstances they don't have anything to gain from an off-axis handle or rear-eyed head. They are not a tool that penetrates its target and do not have the same geometrical requirements imposed on them the angles of a cutting wedge does. Asymmetrically-weighted hammers do exist and have significant adherents within the contexts of use for which they were intended. Notable examples include Japanese bladesmithing hammers that are well-regarded for use in forging bevels, and flooring mallets. You could, in theory, make a sledge hammer with an offset eye, but it would just complicate things without a meaningful gain in performance because it's not the same kind of tool.

If you were to saw off one side of a sledge hammer you'd need to angle the face, as well, to give it a more closed presentation or else you would have effectively "opened its hang" by altering the balance. But it would still be balanced.

 

[FortyTwoBlades]

Here's a digital mockup of what a lopsided (but balanced) sledge hammer would look like. Note how the handle is now offset to retain nearly its full length still along a vector through the center of gravity. The angle of the face has been slightly closed to maintain equivalent presentation in the stroke. I can't think of a reason why a sledge hammer built this way would be of advantage (perhaps striking over an obstructing barrier of some kind?) but it maintains equal face size as the original but with less weight.

 

[Park Swan]

Excellently illustrated :thumbup:

 

[rjdankert]

. . .In regards to the questions you posed, the reason for asking your join date was made clear, was it not?. . .

No, it was not. Could you please restate it?

. . .Determined? I'm not sure what you're asking, that statement is clearly my opinion. . .

Your opinion is that "there have been many threads that go much deeper into discussions than is necessary"? My opinion is that a lot of threads could go deeper.
[video=youtube;zZ3fjQa5Hls]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zZ3fjQa5Hls[/video]

. . .As specific as you seem interested in being, it seems it would be necessary to agree on some consensus before moving forward at all. . .

I think consensus already exists in dictionaries and textbooks.

. . .I know what I mean by balance of the axe head, and I generally know what others mea by the same term as it relates to this discussion. . .

Sorry, I have no ability to divine things.

. . .your standards may call for some measurement which could apply to different types of axes-. . .

Correct.

. . . I don't know how one would establish this sort of consistency, or what type of axe would be considered a control. . .

What "consistency" do you mean and what factors do you need to control for?

. . .I am not interested in equations for this sort of thing, I really don't see that going anywhere useful.

Bob