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The BladeForums.com 2024 Traditional Knife is ready to order! See this thread for details: https://www.bladeforums.com/threads/bladeforums-2024-traditional-knife.2003187/
Price is$300$250 ea (shipped within CONUS). If you live outside the US, I will contact you after your order for extra shipping charges.
Order here: https://www.bladeforums.com/help/2024-traditional/ - Order as many as you like, we have plenty.
"No unnecessary weight in the poll."
- Thread starter FortyTwoBlades
- Start date
Bob
Good one, Bob!
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As previously noted, the convenient thing here is that because we're using nothing more than the center of gravity, and a very simple method of establishing where that is, no equations are necessary. The specific weight involved isn't required because, when suspended, the tool automatically pivots to bring itself into a balanced suspension. This allows you to very easily check the relationships of all of the factors involved (axles and the presentation of the bit, etc) on the fly with any axe, and once familiar with where the CoG tends to be on certain forms you can even make reasonably good approximations simply by looking at an image of the tool.
A lot of this is related to balancing a wheel except instead of holding the axle as fixed and altering the mass around it to bring things into rotational balance, you're altering the alignment of the axle.
A lot of this is related to balancing a wheel except instead of holding the axle as fixed and altering the mass around it to bring things into rotational balance, you're altering the alignment of the axle.
Park Swan
Knifemaker / Craftsman / Service Provider
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No, it was not. Could you please restate it?
Im not sure if you're being intentionally obtuse. It was in reference to the existence of threads pre dating your joining the forum.
Your opinion is that "there have been many threads that go much deeper into discussions than is necessary"? My opinion is that a lot of threads could go deeper.
Ok?
I think consensus already exists in dictionaries and textbooks.
Not sure what you're getting at, but you don't seem to be getting at the discussion at hand...
Sorry, I have no ability to divine things.
...
Correct.
What "consistency" do you mean and what factors do you need to control for?
Consistency among all factors other than those variables being evaluated, obviously
Bob
If you want to draw up some diagrams with equations (have fun), feel free to post them here. I will remain content with basic knowledge of physics, logic, and experience. I don't carry the burden of proof, it rests on the people who see the unpolled axe and automatically say that it is inherently unbalanced.
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The way I read his posts was that he has genuine interest in the "why" and "how" of the process. 
In the opposite vein (since we're talking about imbalanced designs) a splitting axe with a poll heavier than the blade would easily upset upon impact and this ought to be very handy for cleaving wood apart. One thing about efficient 'flick the wrist' methods of splitting, that process is controlled by the user whereas intentionally designing an axe to 'tip over' on it's own would likely be rough on the hands and wrists.
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Most single-bitted American axes, regardless of maker or the period in which they were produced, have the CoG pretty much right at the front of the eye, typically no more than about 1cm inside it. That provides a small amount of reduction in unintended cam-out. In double-bits the CoG is obviously smack dab in the middle and so there's no reduction, which is part of why they're so popular for twist splitting. I've seen mauls from some vintage unknown maker before that had a slightly off-center eye and a little shelf ground into the edge on one side about 1/8" back, which would halt the penetration of the bit almost immediately after entering the wood, at which point the head would throw itself to the side. A heftier predecessor of the infamous LeverAxe that one could easily home-fabricate using a "Hecho en Mexico" hardware store maul. Make the eye off-center simply by grinding away some material from only one side of the bit and then use the edge of the platen on a belt sander to grind in the shelf.
My personal Rinaldi 5.5lb maul balances just shy of a full inch inside the eye (which, being a maul, is pretty short front-to-back) and so is able to throw a twist easily when I want it to. I use it on a short 24" handle when splitting down kindling-sized stuff in the basement and I'll alternate between methods depending on how knotted the given piece is.
My personal Rinaldi 5.5lb maul balances just shy of a full inch inside the eye (which, being a maul, is pretty short front-to-back) and so is able to throw a twist easily when I want it to. I use it on a short 24" handle when splitting down kindling-sized stuff in the basement and I'll alternate between methods depending on how knotted the given piece is.
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Tuatahi axes have a similarly small poll, but notice the trajectory of the main length of the handle--it points right towards the center of gravity. The neck is offset to allow for this.
That is a sexy axe!
Tuatahi axes have a similarly small poll, but notice the trajectory of the main length of the handle--it points right towards the center of gravity. The neck is offset to allow for this.
This picture is self explanatory to folks that appreciate axes (a bona fide Ferrari amongst the Toyota Corollas/Chevy Cavaliers and Dodge Powerwagons that we ogle over) but selecting and fitting a durable haft to this particular head is not something an 'ordinary stiff' merely seeking a new handle at the hardware store is going to find, nor if he/she did find one, is it going to 'hang together' for very long.
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Although the "ordinary stiff" is unlikely to do a good job of fitting even a conventional American hardware store handle to a domestic head, either. We've all seen those photos.
A handle with less offset would still work fine, but you'd need to be more mindful of your technique rather than it being so automatic as with a single-axie handle. Most handles available today don't have as much offset in the neck as they ought to. The only ones I've seen I consider as having the right amount are the ones that Snow & Nealley uses on their full-sized axes.
No, in fact it's used as a Wallaby/Wombat meat tenderizer, my good man. Actually that's Square_Peg's Plumb (made in USA) miner/construction/rafting axe. Much like a commercial framing hammer the factory saw fit at one time (during the late 1950s/early 60s) to offer non-skid checkered faces on the hardened polls of some of these. These definitely were very special axes!
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The answer to the poll vs poll less question is in the chopping, not in diagrams of CoG or weird manipulation of a sledge hammer photo. Chopping, as in all day work in the woods felling and bucking. It is odd to me that someone so young seems to think he has this all scoped out. Sorry, experience rules !
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Your answer is naught but handwaving and it's foolish to disregard science-based explanations because they come from one younger than you. Very disappointing to see this attitude from one so well-revered. This isn't armchair theory here--it's explanations of dynamics that have been observed in use not only by myself but by countless men who were dead and buried before you were even born. These concepts may not have been described in so precise an extent until now (at least not that I've seen) but they were absolutely understood by even our most ancient axe-using ancestors, and the archeological record bears this out--not just axes of recent history.
Observation in experience was what led me to explore and describe these concepts, and in tools far more complex than axes. I had to find out how to find the balance and center of gravity of scythes to explain certain handling dynamics I had observed, and they're asymmetric in all three dimensions. The fact that those concepts also happened to apply to axes and really all other hand tools was a matter of happenstance.
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Otzi the Ice Man's axe was built according to the principles of balance and presentation that are being discussed here.
This 2400-year-old socket axe also follows those principles.
In more recent history, primitive African axes do, also.
In more advanced tool-making nations, axes with small or absent polls are found in Spain, Portugal, France, Italy, and some Japanese styles. Many more axes, still, have smaller polls the current American paradigm would dictate, including those from Germany, Russia, Eastern Europe, etc.--even many Nordic patterns.
Even in axes with large polls, many are still not in balance at the eye, and so an offset in the neck of the handle is still needed to bring the primary length along a single axle. Welsh miner's axes are a good example.
This 2400-year-old socket axe also follows those principles.
In more recent history, primitive African axes do, also.
In more advanced tool-making nations, axes with small or absent polls are found in Spain, Portugal, France, Italy, and some Japanese styles. Many more axes, still, have smaller polls the current American paradigm would dictate, including those from Germany, Russia, Eastern Europe, etc.--even many Nordic patterns.
Even in axes with large polls, many are still not in balance at the eye, and so an offset in the neck of the handle is still needed to bring the primary length along a single axle. Welsh miner's axes are a good example.
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Talk about attitude ! You seem to have forgotten we have had this discussion in other threads and I told you that I like poll less axes, I use poll less axes, but in my opinion, the poll axe is a superior chopper that moves more wood in a days work in the woods. You sure spend a lot of time on the computer and working on your theories. I think you need to chop more and post less, it might help you understand what I am saying. Oh, and if you do chop more, try and not fell a tree without a front notch or without a hardhat as you showed in a video a while back, it sets a bad safety example for viewers. It also might not help you sell your poll less axes.
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No attitude here--just a frank assessment of your tone and contributions to the discussion thus far.
No one is infallible; we all make mistakes and (hopefully) learn from them, as I did in the case you're referencing, and I dearly hope that you can do the same in this case. I wasn't actually using an axe in that video, though--you seem to have forgotten. I spend a lot of time working on developing aspects of theory, but that time is mostly spent while I'm actually in the woods or around the homestead working. The time I spend on the computer is largely spent in describing that theory which was developed through field experience. I spend plenty of time chopping and you have no way of gauging how much of my time I spend doing so, so that's very presumptuous on your part. I gladly concede that you've spent a great deal more time than I doing so, and in a wide range of settings. However, your assertion in this thread was that science was speculation. Your apparent need to throw shade is perplexing, as (once again) it's very easy for you to verify all of these principles for yourself, and they've been clearly understood by axe users (at least by intuition) for literally thousands of years.
Try to stick to debating the subject at hand rather than resorting to ad hominem. I'd hope you're above that.
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Lets get down to it. How many of the axes that you show in this thread do you own and have extensive experience using?
Now, tell us who you actually are. Your real name is not 42 blades. We need to be able to look up on the internet what you have or have not done in your life.
As for me--I am Bernie Weisgerber and I have owned and used all (and many that have not been shown) the axes that are in the U S Forest Service "An Ax To Grind" manual and video as well as all the axes, adzes, and other wood working tools in the "These Old Cabins" video series, PBS " Frontier House" series, PBS "This Old House" series where I loaned my axes etc. to Norm Abram in two different shows, PBS "Alone In The Wilderness" fund raiser where I used my tools to narrate about what Dick Proenneke used to build his wilderness log cabin, Discovery channel " Off The Grid", And History channel "Save Our History"
Now, tell us who you actually are. Your real name is not 42 blades. We need to be able to look up on the internet what you have or have not done in your life.
As for me--I am Bernie Weisgerber and I have owned and used all (and many that have not been shown) the axes that are in the U S Forest Service "An Ax To Grind" manual and video as well as all the axes, adzes, and other wood working tools in the "These Old Cabins" video series, PBS " Frontier House" series, PBS "This Old House" series where I loaned my axes etc. to Norm Abram in two different shows, PBS "Alone In The Wilderness" fund raiser where I used my tools to narrate about what Dick Proenneke used to build his wilderness log cabin, Discovery channel " Off The Grid", And History channel "Save Our History"
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My name is no secret--I'm Benjamin Bouchard, and it's not hard to find that out.
I own none of the axes shown thus far in this thread, but own and use many with similar characteristics pertinent to what's being discussed, among them a range of American, German, and Italian axes. I also have and use several adzes, and have a very large collection of American and European scythes which I use extensively and have written on at length, which is pertinent due to my previously mentioned situation in which I became aware of these concepts and dynamics. I'm a researcher and designer of edged tools and have had my work featured in Knives Illustrated, Backwoodsman Magazine, and others.
Your credentials are numerous, and I've already tipped my hat to you on that account. BUT--what is incorrect about anything I've written so far? Can you tell me? If not, those credentials don't matter. This is about if the information is correct or incorrect. Can you demonstrate that it is incorrect?
Regarding my personal commercial interests in the Italian axes I sell, I'll have you know that I actually make a smaller margin on those than I do the American or American-style axes I carry, and the hassle involved in getting them is significant. If I were in this for the money I wouldn't be bothering with them because it's much easier to sell a product that has brand recognition, US-based distribution, and familiar styling. I carry and promote them because I genuinely like them, and for my purposes they've actually pushed my American axes to the side, to the point where I'm using Italian axes almost exclusively now.