"No unnecessary weight in the poll."

So, I did an internet search on Benjamin Bouchard. Granted, I am not very good at this, but here is what I found: a Benjamin Bouchard who was arrested in Port Hope, Northumberland, Canada in a drug bust; and a Benjamin Bouchard who is an insurance agent in Nashua, N.H. I was expecting to find a degree from M.I.T., or a connection to a machine shop or a blacksmith shop, maybe a work history using an axe as a competitive chopper, or on a trail crew, a tree surgen, a logger. Hell, I could not even find a connection to wranglestar. In my search the only thing I found was a guy who sells poll-less axes. Go figure!

There are lots of Benjamin Bouchards in the world. How does this apply to the validity of my statements? Please focus on the ideas instead of obsessing over the person behind them, though I'm honored you'd squander the time on me.
 
So, I did an internet search on Benjamin Bouchard. Granted, I am not very good at this, but here is what I found: a Benjamin Bouchard who was arrested in Port Hope, Northumberland, Canada in a drug bust; and a Benjamin Bouchard who is an insurance agent in Nashua, N.H. I was expecting to find a degree from M.I.T., or a connection to a machine shop or a blacksmith shop, maybe a work history using an axe as a competitive chopper, or on a trail crew, a tree surgen, a logger. Hell, I could not even find a connection to wranglestar. In my search the only thing I found was a guy who sells poll-less axes. Go figure!

Sir, respectfully, the direction you are taking this conversation is unrelated to the topic at best. We all regard your experience and knowledge very highly. Fortytwo has remained very civil in this discussion and has kept to talking about his own experience and interpretation of facts. You are in a position to disagree with his assertions, and the relevance of your experience and knowledge can hardly be overstated in this regard, but personally implying anything about Fortytwo neither speaks to your experience nor contributes to the discussion at hand.
 
I honestly don't know what an "axe's balance" is. It seems like a feely thing that frequently gets tossed out but never explained.

This explanation seems to be primarily for a felling axe.

30336177426_63e3ea8062_c.jpg


There are other points on an axe that it could be balanced from. An axe could be balanced vertically on one's nose. Does that make the axe a "balanced axe"?


Bob
 
For me, the validity of a statement is always related to the validity of the person making the statement.
 
rj--This is all a little difficult to put in words, and of course it's these diagrams I don't have done yet...but here's an attempt to describe things in verbal format. In geometric terms it's really super simple, but the visual just doesn't translate so easily into a description. :p

The balance all starts at the center of gravity. Everything else comes from the axes (in the sense of the plural form of axis) that the mass comprising the rest of the object is being manipulated from. Think of a Saturn-like shape where you have a round disc with a bulge in the middle. Presuming that the bulge is centered and the disc is otherwise uniform, the center of gravity will be right in the middle. Pinch the disc between your forefinger and thumb anywhere along the perimeter of the disc, and the center bulge will immediately swing down to suspend itself directly below your grip point. Wobble that disc back and forth in the air, and you'll notice that the central location of its pivoting action is at the center of gravity.

This is the self-balancing nature of a single grip point on a tool--as the center of gravity is free to pivot, it will automatically bring itself into balance along the axis running through both itself and the grip point. Think of this axis like the axle of a wheel, around which the wheel will spin. Move this axle in space, and the wheel moves with it. However, when you grip that Saturn shape in two places, it can no longer self-balance itself. If you imposed a clock face on that shape and gripped it at 12 and 6, 3 and 9, or 5 and 11, the grip points and the center of gravity all lie on a single line, and so would still behave as before. If you were to grip it at 2 and 11, however, you'll have formed a triangle between your grip points and the center of gravity.

Each of those three sides of the triangle is its own axle, and force applied at any of the three points causes leverage to the axle across from it. The greater the altitude of that point of the triangle (aka the height) the greater the leverage it exacts on the axle opposite it. Think of it like a peavey rolling a log, with the log being the axle and the handle of the peavey being the altitude. The greater the altitude, the longer your handle, the easier it is to force the axle (log) to roll. In this case that's a bad thing, because while you can control the two points you're gripping, you have the weight of the tool out in space potentially flopping around twisting on your axle. The shape of your handle helps prevent this, but in the case of an axe, it's common to hold the axe below the head and then slide it down the handle during the swing to deliver the blow, and during this phase it's possible for the force you apply to the axe from the off hand to wobble in 3D space, which causes the axe to wobble because you're levering the axle running from the lower hand to the center of gravity, and this causes the bit to wobble side to side. So force applied behind that point has to be done as much along the 2D plane as possible to prevent that wobble from occurring.
 
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For me, the validity of a statement is always related to the validity of the person making the statement.

Attack the concept, not the person. Isolate the statements and arguments from their source. Evaluate them independent of the voice that speaks them. Otherwise you're committing an appeal to authority and/or genetic fallacy and, depending on how you choose to go about it, possibly ad hominem.

Edit: To further clarify, I actively encourage you to try tearing my argument apart. I respect your experience and what insight it might lend to the discussion. This isn't some sort of chest-thumping contest--what concerns me is only the truth. What has been discussed so far is my attempt to describe the science behind dynamics I've observed. If I'm incorrect I want to know how and why, so that I might improve my own understanding of what makes the tools tick. But to date my experiences and current understanding have been very closely aligned, to the point where I've been able to use them to make accurate predictions of behavior easily and have them confirmed upon trial.
 
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The axle (also known as the axis of rotational balance) is always a straight line from the grip point through the center of gravity. It is usually impractical to alter the location of the center of gravity, and therefore it is easier to change the grip point. Changing the grip point causes the formation of a new axle. If one were to chuck up the axe in a lathe along any of its (infinite) axles, it would spin true and vibration-free. . .
Let's see if I understand this so far:


An "axle" (the "axis of rotational balance") is a line from a "grip point" on an axe through its center of gravity.

There are an infinate number of "grip points" on an axe.

Therefore there are an infinate number of "axles".

If you chuck an axe in a lathe so that any "axle" is on the same line as the line between centers, then the axe will spin smoothly (no wobble).

I assume that the lathe example is used because it has relevance to an axe swing.

If I have a correct understanding of your terms "axis of rotational balance", "axle" and "grip point", then the following seems ambiguous to me:
. . .Depending on where your grip point/axle is, the presentation of the bit relative to your stroke will be impacted.
. . .
My reason is that the lathe example includes all possible "grip points" and always produces the same result - spinning "true and vibration-free". How will the "grip point" effect the "stroke"?


Bob
 
There is virtually no one alive today that uses (or at one time used) an axe to make a living but there are hundreds of thousands of these old chopping tools still kicking around. Judging by the wear on many of these oldies they probably experienced 1/2 century of constant use. Why is it then that we very rarely find worn oddball unbalanced heads or even screwball handles? Users don't need physics or engineering lessons in order to be productive (and comfortable!) with an axe. All they need is to experience what works and what doesn't, and overwhelmingly this turns out be conventional-balance designs.
 
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Let's see if I understand this so far:


An "axle" (the "axis of rotational balance") is a line from a "grip point" on an axe through its center of gravity.

There are an infinate number of "grip points" on an axe.

Therefore there are an infinate number of "axles".

If you chuck an axe in a lathe so that any "axle" is on the same line as the line between centers, then the axe will spin smoothly (no wobble).

I assume that the lathe example is used because it has relevance to an axe swing.

If I have a correct understanding of your terms "axis of rotational balance", "axle" and "grip point", then the following seems ambiguous to me:

My reason is that the lathe example includes all possible "grip points" and always produces the same result - spinning "true and vibration-free". How will the "grip point" effect the "stroke"?


Bob

You mostly have it, except for all axles producing the same result. They do always produce a balanced tool--an axis around which the tool will self-balance (or attempt to self-balance if more than one axle is in play) BUT the orientation of the axle relative to the tool changes the presentation of that tool during the stroke. For instance, in an extreme example, if you were to make your grip point on the head itself by wrapping your hand around the bit, you'd have an axle running from the grip point through the center of gravity, still, but you'd be presenting the handle to the target instead of the head.

There is virtually no one alive today that uses (or at one time used) an axe to make a living but there are hundreds of thousands of these old chopping tools still kicking around. Judging by the wear on many of these oldies they probably experienced 1/2 century of constant use. Why is it then that we very rarely find worn oddball unbalanced heads or even screwball handles? Users don't need physics or engineering lessons in order to be productive with an axe. All they need is to experience what works and what doesn't, and overwhelmingly this turns out be conventional-balance designs.

There are a few factors at play there, but here's the abbreviated version. One factor is that people are opportunistic and inherently "lazy" in that they will usually take the path of least required thought or personal effort to get a job done--it's "bird in the hand" syndrome at work. As such, most people the world over use what tools they can buy at the local store or otherwise off the digital "shelf" at places like Amazon, and use them in the condition they came in or close to it. Clearly this is not model axe use. We also find, constantly, old axes with goodness-knows-what jammed in the eye to tighten the head, or heads hafted upside down. With blunt, dinged up edges. Because the guy swinging it didn't know, didn't care, and worked easily ten times as hard as a result. However, those people throughout history have benefited from the technological trickle-down of innovators and makers/manufacturers pushing the performance of their tools to adapt them to the changing needs of the market.

There have always been axes made for professionals and those made for household/pedestrian use, and a whole range between, with different intended applications, price points, and preferences at work in determining optimized tool forms. This is largely a responsibility not in the hands of the consumer. They buy it and swing it. But there are those in the marketplace that are the frontier of innovation of an industry's tools, and feels motivated enough to communicate with makers or manufacturers to tell them "for my work I'd prefer something a little more like ______." Regional styles largely evolved in this sort of manner, and later on such folks would have local smiths make a tool for them and they'd send it off to a large maker for use as a pattern. The jobber system that was commonly used by hardware stores allowed for a lot of communication between buyers and sellers, and the manufacturing methods of the day allowed for a lot of flexibility in pattern production. Over time certain fundamental design aspects had become prioritized and institutionalized as familiar by the peoples of a region, and so that tends to form the foundation off of which all other designs are based.

But ultimately, it comes down to some guy swinging an axe somewhere to get a job done, and even if the mind doesn't consciously understand what's going on with the tool, the subconscious is hard at work doing what adjustments it can to make the tool behave as the user desires. Sub-par tools can, and usually do, still get the job done and if the user is none the wiser then it doesn't bother them much--they don't know what they're missing! :)
 
Many people, many nations persist in using historic axe styles solely for cultural reasons. Just as we here in the U.S. had our local favorite patterns (that didn't greatly effect the function) so do others have their favorite designs. A tiny change in the efficiency of a tool isn't worth losing the cultural connection to a tool. All the differing designs are quaint.
 
You mostly have it, except for all axles producing the same result. . .

Does't this describe the same result for all "axles":
. . . If one were to chuck up the axe in a lathe along any of its (infinite) axles, it would spin true and vibration-free. . .
An axe can only be chucked in a lathe so that one "axle" at a time is in play.


. . .if you were to make your grip point on the head itself by wrapping your hand around the bit, you'd have an axle running from the grip point through the center of gravity, still, but you'd be presenting the handle to the target instead of the head.
Or, depending on how you hold or swing it, it could present another part of the head to the target.

But what is the purpose of the lathe example?


Bob
 
I'd say there were certainly a lot of variations within global regions that were pretty minor, but they did have strengths or weaknesses that were slightly different than other similar patterns. There's a reason why a lot of patterns consolidated over time as manufacturing itself consolidated into larger firms, but by the same token that's not to say that those finer stylistic demarcations weren't without purpose. They were optimized for their local conditions and yet a very similar pattern could be produced by a large firm in a manner that took advantage of economies of scale and so could produce them much cheaper...so the cost/benefit ratio got skewed as a result and it didn't make so much financial sense to opt for the more expensive and only slightly different version of the tool. That money was better spent on other equipment that increased their range of functional capability.

Ultimately, when selecting any tool it's best to establish the prioritized range of tasks that you wish to accomplish and consider the best balance of features that matches that functional profile. Even if you have the same list of tasks you wish to accomplish as another fellow, a difference in their priority can cause a significant shift in the idealized form of the tool for those same tasks.
 
Does't this describe the same result for all "axles":

An axe can only be chucked in a lathe so that one "axle" at a time is in play.

Yes, but the problem is that when you've got two grip points in play that are not sharing the same axle it's like chucking a piece of wood in a lathe off-center. You've created a triangular relationship rather than a simple axis along what Square_Peg has dubbed the axis of control. The tool would rotate without vibration at either axle that passes from one grip point through the CoG, but the other grip point being active means that you're creating a third axle between the grip points which does not pass through the CoG, and that's what causes wobble.


Or, depending on how you hold or swing it, it could present another part of the head to the target.

But what is the purpose of the lathe example?


Bob

The presentation is always considered as relative to the path of the stroke. See here for some preliminary writing on that subject. It's sort of the other half (or third) of these dynamics. The purpose of the lathe example is an explanation of the concept that the tool is in rotational balance along that axis. That it will not be caused to twist or rotate as a result of gravity because it is properly aligned in such a way that the CoG is along the axle, even if multiple grip points are in play.
 
Yes, but the problem is that when you've got two grip points in play that are not sharing the same axle it's like chucking a piece of wood in a lathe off-center. You've created a triangular relationship . . .
Two "grip points" was not in the post I was asking about. And "chucking a piece of wood in a lathe off-center" still has only one line between centers - no "triangular relationship".


Here is the whole post I was asking about:
The axle (also known as the axis of rotational balance) is always a straight line from the grip point through the center of gravity. It is usually impractical to alter the location of the center of gravity, and therefore it is easier to change the grip point. Changing the grip point causes the formation of a new axle. If one were to chuck up the axe in a lathe along any of its (infinite) axles, it would spin true and vibration-free. Depending on where your grip point/axle is, the presentation of the bit relative to your stroke will be impacted.

Finding all of this information, luckily, requires no equations or computation--you just need to find where your center of gravity is. If it lays external to the body of the object you can find it by pinching it at two different points, along with a plumb line. Where those two plumb lines would intersect is where your center of gravity is. Once you know where the center of gravity is, you then know that your axle then lays in a straight line from your grip point through the center of gravity.


Bob
 
Two "grip points" was not in the post I was asking about. And "chucking a piece of wood in a lathe off-center" still has only one line between centers - no "triangular relationship".


Here is the whole post I was asking about:



Bob

It does have a triangular relationship. There's grip point A, grip point B, and the CoG. An axle exists from A to the CoG, from B to the CoG, and from A to B.

The presentation relative to the stroke is dependent on your axle because the axle represents the central axis of mass during the stroke--certain parts will sit forward of it, and some parts rearward of it, and how those parts are oriented relative to that axis impacts how the bit will land.

With an axe the line running through the heel and toe is the bit presentation, and it is oriented relative to the axle. If you were to alter the axle by one mode or another and run it along the same path, it would cause the bit to land at its target differently.
 
It does have a triangular relationship. . .
Two "grip points" was not in the post I was asking about. And "chucking a piece of wood in a lathe off-center" still has only one line between centers - no "triangular relationship".


Here is the whole post I was asking about:
The axle (also known as the axis of rotational balance) is always a straight line from the grip point through the center of gravity. It is usually impractical to alter the location of the center of gravity, and therefore it is easier to change the grip point. Changing the grip point causes the formation of a new axle. If one were to chuck up the axe in a lathe along any of its (infinite) axles, it would spin true and vibration-free. Depending on where your grip point/axle is, the presentation of the bit relative to your stroke will be impacted.

Finding all of this information, luckily, requires no equations or computation--you just need to find where your center of gravity is. If it lays external to the body of the object you can find it by pinching it at two different points, along with a plumb line. Where those two plumb lines would intersect is where your center of gravity is. Once you know where the center of gravity is, you then know that your axle then lays in a straight line from your grip point through the center of gravity.


Bob
 
I'm not talking about a literal lathe here. I'm using it as an analogy for the behavior of the rotation along that axle...with only a single grip point in question, you have a single axle present because the tool is free to self-balance itself along that axis. The axle defined by the grip point and CoG create an axis around which rotation causes no wobble.
 
Gentlemen! All this conjectural BS has got to stop!
42Blades; are those your 'weather-beaten calloused hands' wielding a Baryonyx sharpening puck prototype pictured in another thread?
It's a lot easier to believe advice from folks that have physically used axes a lot than it is to give credence to aficionados that spout the Gospel according to Google.
 
A metaphorical lathe with a headstock and two centers in the tailstock?

Bob

Again, as noted, it's merely describing the rotational behavior around that axis. Not sure how I can be much clearer. Only one axle is to be considered at any one time under that analogy. It is describing an axis around which--if the object were chucked in a lathe along such--that it would spin without vibration because it would be in perfect rotational balance. You could also say that if it were a clothes drier or washing machine and the drum were centered on that axle it would spin without shaking, even if that axle weren't in the middle of the round shape of the drum due to the distribution of clothes causing the center of gravity to lay off center.

Gentlemen! All this conjectural BS has got to stop!
42Blades; are those your 'weather-beaten calloused hands' wielding a Baryonyx sharpening puck prototype pictured in another thread?
It's a lot easier to believe advice from folks that have physically used axes a lot than it is to give credence to aficionados that spout the Gospel according to Google.

Those are my hands, yes. Not sure what you're getting at, but they're plenty calloused. I do pretty much everything around the homestead by hand and I don't wear gloves.
 
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