Non stainless steels, why?

Comeuppance said:
It’s often a preference founded primarily in impractical reasons. Some people like patinas / oxidation, some people eschew modern steels for various reasons, etc.

That said, there isn’t always a direct analog stainless for each kind of non-stainless. Maxamet and ZDP are non-stainless and are basically the top dogs of edge retention. 4V is the tank of blade steels. The outlier highest performers are all non-stainless as far as I know.
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ZDP is technically stainless by most definitions, 20% chromium. It just stains and rusts a lot more easily than most because most of it turns into chromium carbides because of the insane amount of carbon in it.
 
Saying "tool steels/carbon steels have exact equals" but in stainless steels is like saying everyone should just eat McDonald's cheeseburgers only because they're food and all food is fuel.
 
Well, that settles it for me; stainless is the way to go. I have no issues with sharpening XHP. I wouldn't call it difficult by any means.

What would everyone recommend for a stainless that holds a keen razor edge for a long time but not so much a working edge once the razor edge dulls?
 
Mrs_Esterhouse said:
Well, that settles it for me; stainless is the way to go. I have no issues with sharpening XHP. I wouldn't call it difficult by any means.

What would everyone recommend for a stainless that holds a keen razor edge for a long time but not so much a working edge once the razor edge dulls?
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I don't think that many properly heat treated steels are going to hold a razor edge for noticeably different amounts of time. If I want something that's easy to get sharp and keep sharp, though, I'd go for AEB-L.
 
"Stainless" doesn't mean "stain proof" or "rust proof". There is a whole spectrum of corrosion resistance. Corrosion resistance is one property among a few to consider when choosing a knife steel.
 
Mrs_Esterhouse said:
Well, that settles it for me; stainless is the way to go. I have no issues with sharpening XHP. I wouldn't call it difficult by any means.

What would everyone recommend for a stainless that holds a keen razor edge for a long time but not so much a working edge once the razor edge dulls?
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I think you have one of the better steels for that already, CTS-XHP. It won’t hold an edge as long as M390, but it does takes a pretty keen edge without issue. I actually think XHP preforms similarly to some carbon steels. If edge holding is more important M390/204p/20CV are all an improvement. I feel that you can get a keener edge from XHP, but like I said it won’t hold it as long as the three I listed above.
 
Alberta Ed said:
Generally tougher and easier to sharpen. Plus, corrosion is not really a problem given reasonable care.
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All things being equal, that sums up my position too. There are times where say one steel may be more appropriate for a specific use than another, but I think most people make an overly big deal about corrosion, and even edge retention.
 
CTS-XHP holds a great edge, I sharpened this steel alongside S35vn (60-61 rc) one day. Xhp took slightly more effort to sharpen and I did notice it. From my understanding Xhp does not have a lot of free chromium. It’s not overly stainless, if that’s what your after.
 
If there’s ever a stainless that matches performance of my top non-stainless blades, I’ll gladly retire my others. So far, none have come close.
That’s why.
Vanax is supposed to be the next big promise..... but I have doubts.
 
jpm2 said:
If there’s ever a stainless that matches performance of my top non-stainless blades, I’ll gladly retire my others. So far, none have come close.
That’s why.
Vanax is supposed to be the next big promise..... but I have doubts.
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Your non stainless steels simply stay sharper longer, or is there some other performance feature you're referring to?
 
jpm2 said:
If there’s ever a stainless that matches performance of my top non-stainless blades, I’ll gladly retire my others. So far, none have come close.
That’s why.
Vanax is supposed to be the next big promise..... but I have doubts.
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Vanax is balance my friend, it depends on the context.

Vanax is the S30v/Elmax that people have always wanted.
Something that doesn't rust, doesn't chip, has good wear resistance and is easy to sharpen.

PM Carbon tool steels in the 4V, 10v range can run harder and cut longer but will never be as easy to maintain as Vanax to the common man.

If Vanax was a handgun cartridge it would be 9mm +P+

More performance at higher cost than 9mm yet more versatile and still able to appeal to a wider audience with more applications and less trade offs than more powerful rounds.

One should like the High alloy, PM Carbon tool steels if they like more performance at higher trade off.

Those steels are more like .44mag, .454 casull

More powerful,but not going to be best for all applications or users. Just dudes that are into firepower put it will take more prerequisites to truly appreciate.


Everything depends on context.

So Vanax is a great steel.
 
Mrs_Esterhouse said:
Your non stainless steels simply stay sharper longer, or is there some other performance feature you're referring to?
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Much longer due to less rolling, chipping, or both.

On vanax,
Glad to hear it doesn’t have crack issues, but I’ll have to see for myself.
If it’s significantly limited by hardness, then it partially suffers the same as other stainless steels. It won’t have the edge strength I am used to.
 
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I'm mostly a Spyderco person, but so far they have released very little in M390/204P; nothing in Vanax. They keep pumping out VG10 and S30V for like 95% of their production and it's frustrating as hell.
 
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Mrs_Esterhouse said:
Your non stainless steels simply stay sharper longer, or is there some other performance feature you're referring to?
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Carbon steels tend to be tougher than stainless steels. That toughness allows for a more stable edge which can help lower the chance the edge will roll.

So carbon steels are especially better for larger knives that you may be chopping with.

Those high carbide stainless steels tend to be less tough. So even though their edge will last longer doing jobs like cutting cardboard; harder materials can easily roll the edge.
 
this is why they invented a skrama, in 80crv2, (basically 1080 simple carbon steel with extra vanadium and lower impurities of sulfur), which just makes for some amazingly tough hard use tools - : )

 
Mrs_Esterhouse said:
I'm mostly a Spyderco person, but so far they have released very little in M390/204P; nothing in Vanax. They keep pumping out VG10 and S30V for like 95% of their production and it's frustrating as hell.
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I'm mostly a Spyderco person too, for a few reasons.
I hear you on the vg10 and s30v, but if it wasn't for them, there'd be no maxamet, rex45, k390, 4v, 52100, hap40, and very little m4 and zdp189 in folder form, all affordably offered to the average person, although the average knife user will never buy any.

If it wasn't for what I subject my knives to at my job (which requires many forms of knife use), I could mostly get along with vg10 and s30v, although I wouldn't want to knowing what I do.

What Lapedog Lapedog said too with a couple corrections, if I may. Toughness resists cracking, strength resists rolling.
These two things mostly determine edge stability.
 
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DeadboxHero said:
They vigorously clean off the patina in Japan as a sign of discipline and cleanliness.

They use rust erasers and polishing pastes

Here in the West, we just wipe it dry and let the patina build.

Bar keepers friend powder is a game changer for cleaning rust.
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Correct. Patinas are not valued here in Japan. Carbon steel knives are simply wiped down after each use, and that is normally sufficient to keep any sign of rust developing. Rust erasers etc are for knives that have missed proper care or to eliminate the developing patina.
Processing fish, and contact with salt water has been going on worldwide for a very long time before stainless blades became widespread. Even the US Navy MKII MKIII knives were carbon. And I am sure I am not alone in having rust spots develop sometimes on "stainless" knives that have not been taken care of. Flitz and Simichrome are my favorites, never had a chance to try the highly recommended BKF. Yet anyway.
 
I used to use flitz.

After BKF there is no going back. :D

Flitz seems to be just for polish and luster.
BKF is a lot less work.


KenHash said:
Correct. Patinas are not valued here in Japan. Carbon steel knives are simply wiped down after each use, and that is normally sufficient to keep any sign of rust developing. Rust erasers etc are for knives that have missed proper care or to eliminate the developing patina.
Processing fish, and contact with salt water has been going on worldwide for a very long time before stainless blades became widespread. Even the US Navy MKII MKIII knives were carbon. And I am sure I am not alone in having rust spots develop sometimes on "stainless" knives that have not been taken care of. Flitz and Simichrome are my favorites, never had a chance to try the highly recommended BKF. Yet anyway.
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