Non stainless steels, why?

[justjed]

WHY? I think that if you know how to sharpen at least decently, and know how to take proper care of good tools, there's no real reason not to go with carbon steel blades. If basic maintenance might be an issue, there are plenty of decent mid-grade stainless alloys that will probably do a passable job for most people, without being too hard to sharpen, comparatively. For those whose needs require higher performance, there are the high-end choices, most of which are more or less 'stainless'. These users will usually possess the tools and knowledge to properly care for those blades. (for the record, I like Flitz, too, for most jobs)

And then there's people like us, who obsess over details like steel choices, sharpening techniques, bevel angles, and such. WE are the drivers for the introduction of super-steels into more or less mainstream knifedom. If it wasn't for people like us, there would pretty much be no such thing as 14c28n, S35VN, etc, steels designed exclusively for high performance knives. We would all be using 420J2 blades with suspect heat-treat, or Ginsus. If I like a knife, I don't really care what steel the blade is made from, as long as it is heat-treated properly, and the overall quality/F&F is in line with my somewhat jaded sensibilities. After that, all bets are off.

 

[Cosmodragoon]

If Vanax was a handgun cartridge it would be 9mm +P+

More performance at higher cost than 9mm yet more versatile and still able to appeal to a wider audience with more applications and less trade offs than more powerful rounds.

For those who don't know, "9mm +p" is 9mm ammo which has been loaded to a higher pressure. The "+p+" means that it has been loaded to pressures exceeding the SAAMI specification for 9mm +p. There is no official official specification for +p+. Many in the gun community regard 9mm +p+ as excessive. It generally raises questions about increased wear and tear or whether particular guns can safely handle the pressure. To quote Sig Sauer's website: "We do NOT recommend the use of any +P+ round. This may void your warranty."

People looking for more power in a semi-auto will typically move up to safely established choices like .40 S&W, .357 Sig, or 10mm. (If you really need a 9mm bullet to travel in excess of 1250 fps from a handgun, .357 Sig was designed to do that and the guns are made to handle it.)

So does this mean that Vanax pushes safety limits to achieve quality? If I buy a Vanax knife, will my scales be okay? Maybe I'll just move up to a safely powerful choice like M390.

 

[Bigfattyt]

Because get off my lawn.....whipper snappers...

 

[Wowbagger]

The edge performance is superior.

The top carbon tool steels offer more
Strength, higher working hardness, more toughness, ease of sharpening and wear resistance than comparable stainless steels

That's why

Just that !
I say get some and try it; use it, sharpen it . . . repeat. You'll see.
I swear I can feel the difference between cutting with say M4 and M390. I like both steels but there is just something there with the stuff that tarnishes (especially M4) . . . it sounds stupid and ridiculous but I swear I can feel a difference (that I like) right through the handle of the knife.
I know
I don't blame you for thinking that.

 

[Velitrius]

Because get off my lawn.....whipper snappers...

Hehehehehee... this.

 

[DeadboxHero]

For those who don't know, "9mm +p" is 9mm ammo which has been loaded to a higher pressure. The "+p+" means that it has been loaded to pressures exceeding the SAAMI specification for 9mm +p. There is no official official specification for +p+. Many in the gun community regard 9mm +p+ as excessive. It generally raises questions about increased wear and tear or whether particular guns can safely handle the pressure. To quote Sig Sauer's website: "We do NOT recommend the use of any +P+ round. This may void your warranty."

People looking for more power in a semi-auto will typically move up to safely established choices like .40 S&W, .357 Sig, or 10mm. (If you really need a 9mm bullet to travel in excess of 1250 fps from a handgun, .357 Sig was designed to do that and the guns are made to handle it.)

So does this mean that Vanax pushes safety limits to achieve quality? If I buy a Vanax knife, will my scales be okay? Maybe I'll just move up to a safely powerful choice like M390.

Production knives in M390 at 58rc are .357 Magnum wadcutters out of a 1" barrel.

 

[Cosmodragoon]

Production knives in M390 at 58rc are .357 Magnum wadcutters out of a 1" barrel.

Is there a reliable resource for heat treatment on production knives? I'm especially interested in the sub-$80 Kershaw Dividend in M390.

Like a lot of us, I rocked a Leek back in the day. I remember buying it back in '04. It was the first "nice" pocket knife I ever owned. It didn't last though because there were things I just didn't like about it. The Dividend feels like a corrected version but the 420HC kept me away. The M390 version is not only better steel but has an improved blade design. If the heat treatment is good too...

 

[bikerector]

What would everyone recommend for a stainless that holds a keen razor edge for a long time but not so much a working edge once the razor edge dulls?

This is a bit of an oxymoron, an edge that holds a nice razor edge will also hold a nice working edge, though the opposite is not necessarily true due to edge stability (D2 for example). Larrin has decent post on this on knifesteelnerds https://knifesteelnerds.com/2018/11/26/steel-edge-retention2/. Basically, high wear resistance is what will delay the edge from dulling from cutting activities, assuming other effects do not dull it first (impact, rust, lateral loads/rolls, chipping/micro-chipping, etc).

Also, what do you consider a razor edge? Shaving hair? Many steels can achieve that so I would go for something high in wear resistance. Application, willingness to touch up the edge, and how much impact (will it be hitting a cutting board a lot?) are questions to ask yourself. S110V is one of the best stainless steels for holding an edge but getting something like AEB-L will do better for repeated impacts and it can accept a really thin angle quite well, thus why it's popular in kitchen knives. Edge angle has a lot to do with how long a blade will stay sharp, nearly as much as the steel, and especially at the high sharpness point where many steels loss sharpness quickly, but the "working edge" is where the high wear resistance really is noticeable.

 

[afishhunter]

Carbon steel cuts just as well today (if not better due to improved metallurgy and heat treatment) as it did a thousand plus years ago.

 

[22-rimfire]

All things being equal, that sums up my position too. There are times where say one steel may be more appropriate for a specific use than another, but I think most people make an overly big deal about corrosion, and even edge retention.

That is my take on this stainless issue with knives in general. The thought has crossed my mind as to why carbon steels are still used, but I have absolutely no problem with carbon steels whether it be sharpening, edge retention, or corrosion resistance. A knife just doesn't have to last two lifetimes.

 

[WillB]

That is my take on this stainless issue with knives in general. The thought has crossed my mind as to why carbon steels are still used, but I have absolutely no problem with carbon steels whether it be sharpening, edge retention, or corrosion resistance. A knife just doesn't have to last two lifetimes.

As stainless has improved, so has carbon and some of the best carbon steels I'd take over stainless any day, unless corrosion resistance was most important factor. What I don't know is what the costs are between them and that too a factor worth considering.

 

[ty_higg]

I prefer carbon steels and when it comes to stainless steels S30 and S35 are my preferred and about all I need. Im not real big on all the super steel type stainless knives. They take forever to sharpen and I usually don't want to be at the sharpener for that long since I prefer wet stones (just my preference). I also find those steel aren't necessary (for my uses) as I've found they don't hold an edge much longer with my cutting tasks and use. Then it goes back to taking forever with my preferred sharpening method. With that said M4 is about as crazy in the steel world that I get. I find it holds a very good edge and still can sharpen relatively easily while giving you that beautiful patina.

The main reason though is, I love a good patina. I feel it gives the knife more soul and makes it yours as the blade changes form your specific uses. I also love the strength carbon blades have at the edge. I rarely have to fix a chip in an edge that I accidentally drop with carbon steels, but with stainless steels I usually get a chip every time. If I'm going to be by salt water though I'm defiantly going to take a stainless knife, just so it might save some hassle if I fall in the water.

 

[Mrs_Esterhouse]

This is a bit of an oxymoron, an edge that holds a nice razor edge will also hold a nice working edge, though the opposite is not necessarily true due to edge stability (D2 for example). Larrin has decent post on this on knifesteelnerds https://knifesteelnerds.com/2018/11/26/steel-edge-retention2/. Basically, high wear resistance is what will delay the edge from dulling from cutting activities, assuming other effects do not dull it first (impact, rust, lateral loads/rolls, chipping/micro-chipping, etc).

Also, what do you consider a razor edge? Shaving hair?

What I mean is when people talk about a fine edge quickly disappearing but the working edge lasting for a really long time such as with S90V. I would be more interested in the opposite where there a steel would hold a fine edge for a decent amount of time but goes to crap with virtually no working edge after it's gone. I don't know if that exists, but it's what I'm after in a steel.

I consider a razor edge one that effortlessly shaves hair.

 

[bikerector]

What I mean is when people talk about a fine edge quickly disappearing but the working edge lasting for a really long time such as with S90V. I would be more interested in the opposite where there a steel would hold a fine edge for a decent amount of time but goes to crap with virtually no working edge after it's gone. I don't know if that exists, but it's what I'm after in a steel.

I consider a razor edge one that effortlessly shaves hair.

In regards to the highlighted, it doesn't exist. It's a continuum thing, you can't get from shaving sharp to dull without passing through working edge sharpness level unless you go straight to a roll or chip. I don't see the point of wanting the edge to go from shaving sharp to butter knife dull (exaggeration) instead of being a working edge but to each their own. A working edge is a lot easier to bring back to shaving sharp than a dull edge, usually can be done with just a strop unless the steel is really hard.

Some of your high carbide steels like S90V just like an aggressive edge. It sounds like you're after things with a finer carbide. Ironically, I think CPM-M4 is your ticket, except it for it's lack of stain resistance. Takes a fine edge and holds it a long time. High hardness (62 rockwell or so) AEB-L or M390/20CV are the next best things I can think of that you would be interested in, at least that I've used a bit. S30V is one I've never had issues with either, but it won't be too different than the CTS-XHP you've already used, which is also quite nice.

I think your best bet, if you're haven't already, is get a nice strop and get proficient with it. Touch up the blade regularly and it stays shaving a long time and you only need to do a full sharpen after long while.

 

[GoldSkula]

Most knifemaker hobbyist use simple steels, because they are easier to work with. This excludes stainless

 

[fielder]

I can't understand why there aren't more knives readily available in aeb-l.

 

[bikerector]

I can't understand why there aren't more knives readily available in aeb-l.

If you look for 13C26, which is the Sandvik copy, I think you'll see a few more. 14c28n from Kershaw and 12c27 are also quite close. I think the sandvik's are often just called Sandvik steel or Scandinavian stainless instead of the full-descriptive name.

Having said that, AEB-L has been getting a lot more attention lately and a lot of mid-tech and handmade knives seem to be using it more often.

graph provided by zknives.com

 

[fielder]

Thank you

 

[Cosmodragoon]

... graph provided by zknives.com...

That site is awesome. I don't always care for the little text descriptions or comments but the graphs are an amazing resource.

 

[bikerector]

Thank you

I should also mention, when using zknives' comparison chart, it took out AEB-L as a name because it is identical to 13C26, so the blue bars above are literally AEB-L and 13C26. That's why AEB-L isn't in the key for the chart. I should've added that bit above.