Non stainless steels, why?

[brownshoe]

I'm mostly a Spyderco person, but so far they have released very little in M390/204P; nothing in Vanax. They keep pumping out VG10 and S30V for like 95% of their production and it's frustrating as hell.

Those are two good steels that were the "best" when introduced. Spyderco brought VG10 out of Japan. If you find the use of those two steels frustrating, possibly the source of the problem is not Spyderco. They are fine steels.

Non-stainless steels still exist for knives because it's generally cheaper to make a good performing knife out of non-stainless steels than a stainless steel.

Outside of that, there's the knife nerds who love non-stainless steel for a variety of reasons that are really personal preference. Patina is oxidation not the "soul" of a knife. As knife nerds, they need to justify their purchases thus they are genuinely convinced of their "correctness" and create tests and pronouncements to prove themselves correct

Personally, "don't buy no ugly knife" is my motto (kind of) and patina is ugly

 

[sodak]

Keep in mind that stainless should really be 2 words. Stain less. I've had stainless steel knives rust on me also.

When I see a stainless v.s. high carbon discussion, I feel like I've been transported back to the 1960's. I'm not sure it is even a meaningful way to compare knives any more with the large variety of steels on the market. Many steels having differing amounts of free chromium will exhibit different traits, but it's on a continuum, not an off/on type of thing.

Take D2 for example. It has around 12% chromium, just barely missing the definition of stainless. The CPM processes have also changed the game in a big way. ZDP 189 should actually be cast iron, with over 3% carbon. But it isn't. A lot of the old definitions have been taken over by events.

If having a stainless steel is that important to you, you certainly have a lot of good choices out there. Gotta love progress!

 

[DocJD]

Why are so many knife enthusiasts into non stainless knife steels like 52100, M4, 4V, etc., when they can get the same edge retention with actual stainless steels like M390, 20CV, S90V, S110V, etc.? I can understand wanting a large variety of options from a collecting standpoint, but for an EDC, why would anyone choose a steel that can spot or rust if not dried after a rainy hike or wet day in the yard?

I guess there has to be something advantageous in the edge people are getting with those tool steels that is absent from the stainless steels. Do they hold a fine, hair popping edge longer than the stainless? This has not been been my experience.

I'm trying to figure this out before making my next purchase. I have a Kershaw with D2 and a Spyderco with XHP. I can get both of the edges razor sharp on my stones, but I haven't experienced any real positives with the D2 edge over the XHP edge to justify going with a non stainless blade. Any thoughts?

Toughness / impact resistance with economy . Think big chopping knives , machetes , swords .

 

[Pilot1]

I tend to buy my fixed blade knives in Carbon Steel, and my pocket folders in Stainless. I have knives in 80CrV2, A2, and 1095 Carbon Steels, and keep them clean, and without rust with minimal care. It really isn't difficult to do.

 

[dirc]

I agree, non-stainless steel is a perfect choice for choppers and larger fixed blades... I'm curious which one does everyone like most?

1095 crovan (or plain)
1075
80crv2
5160
w2
o1
a2

not sure if I've missed any other popular choice... add them if you think of them

 

[brownshoe]

L6, 01 & A2. If you are going non-stainless, might as well have a proven performer at Rc 60+.

 

[Lesknife]

I do have some non stainless knives in 1095cv and they are really good knives but in my work and in general I prefer stainless as it works better for me. I work around corrosive materials and fluids that remove oils and protective films so they can rust and pit very easily. After a few encounters and ruined blades I switched to a good 420hc because it’s more affordable but moved to s30v that did ok and now a 20cv that seems to do much better for corrosion resistance only it stays sharp a lot longer in service. I think it just depends on a persons needs and their environment they work in.

 

[Wogger]

I have plenty of traditional slip joints as well as modern fixed Blade knives in Carbon Steel. It's great steel that performs admirably and will never let you down. However it doesn't really compare to modern stainless steels.
Stainless steels are just as tough, just as durable, and hold an edge even better. They require zero maintenance to keep them functioning and looking great, and are easy to keep sharp regardless of what the carbon steel fan boys say.
If a knife made from carbon steel that is dull as a butter knife takes me 5 minutes to get back to shaving sharp, any stainless steel will take 6 minutes.
All this talk about how difficult stainless steels are to sharpen is just coming from people who don't know how to sharpen knives .

 

[Mo2]

Why are so many knife enthusiasts into non stainless knife steels like 52100, M4, 4V, etc., when they can get the same edge retention with actual stainless steels like M390, 20CV, S90V, S110V, etc.? I can understand wanting a large variety of options from a collecting standpoint, but for an EDC, why would anyone choose a steel that can spot or rust if not dried after a rainy hike or wet day in the yard?

I guess there has to be something advantageous in the edge people are getting with those tool steels that is absent from the stainless steels. Do they hold a fine, hair popping edge longer than the stainless? This has not been been my experience.

I'm trying to figure this out before making my next purchase. I have a Kershaw with D2 and a Spyderco with XHP. I can get both of the edges razor sharp on my stones, but I haven't experienced any real positives with the D2 edge over the XHP edge to justify going with a non stainless blade. Any thoughts?

Try spyderco 52100... It performs better than m390/204p/20cv .. As most mfg ht these steels to 58hrc and spyderco heat treats there 52100 to somewhere around 64hrc.

Actually your statement of other steels having better edge retention isn't always true because of the low rockwell or your just looking at one type of media like rope and not cardboard, which can differ a little. But alot of testers like SuperSteel Steve and outpost76 on YouTube have been showing these so called super steels arnt as good as some s30v. And Curts hrc testing is showing low rockwell on them.

Which imho is because they want to sell what's popular without providing the idea heat treatment for the performance

D2 heat treatment matters alot if you check outpost 76 most of the imported d2 is poor performance in comparison to USA d2 makers. Even though some of the China stuff shows high hrc numbers.

But his tests also show edges requiring multiple sharpenings to get past burnt edges.

Anyways... I really enjoy using M4 Rex45, maxamet and 52100 alot. I keep them without patina by using oil on the blades

 

[McFeeli]

I have plenty of traditional slip joints as well as modern fixed Blade knives in Carbon Steel. It's great steel that performs admirably and will never let you down. However it doesn't really compare to modern stainless steels.
Stainless steels are just as tough, just as durable, and hold an edge even better. They require zero maintenance to keep them functioning and looking great, and are easy to keep sharp regardless of what the carbon steel fan boys say.
If a knife made from carbon steel that is dull as a butter knife takes me 5 minutes to get back to shaving sharp, any stainless steel will take 6 minutes.
All this talk about how difficult stainless steels are to sharpen is just coming from people who don't know how to sharpen knives .

That’s not necessarily true. There are extremely hard steels out there in both styles. Think Maxamet or S110V. I had trouble sharpening S30V for a while until I learned it’s quirks, but I can say with 100% certainty, sharpening a steel like that takes longer than an extra minute or so. Sure, you can get a steel like 12C27 that’ll sharpen up in a flash, but not all steels are created equal. Just like Maxamet won’t sharpen as easily as 1095.

 

[Wogger]

That’s not necessarily true. There are extremely hard steels out there in both styles. Think Maxamet or S110V. I had trouble sharpening S30V for a while until I learned it’s quirks, but I can say with 100% certainty, sharpening a steel like that takes longer than an extra minute or so. Sure, you can get a steel like 12C27 that’ll sharpen up in a flash, but not all steels are created equal. Just like Maxamet won’t sharpen as easily as 1095.

Sure some steels take more than a minute extra, but it's nothing like the hours people say it takes.
All I'm saying is any steel can be easily sharpened once you know how.
For me the benefits of stainless steels or semi stainless outway any from carbon steel.

 

[me2]

I just like them. All my folders are stainless, but I'd take carbon if it was more available in folders below $75. The differences in maintenance and edge holding are not significant enough to totally rule out an entire category of steels (carbon/nonstainless). Oddly , both my favorite kitchen knives are carbon steel. One is White #2 & the other is similar to O1, though the blade as a whole is laminated with stainless.

 

[d00mtr33]

If you look for 13C26, which is the Sandvik copy, I think you'll see a few more. 14c28n from Kershaw and 12c27 are also quite close. I think the sandvik's are often just called Sandvik steel or Scandinavian stainless instead of the full-descriptive name.

Having said that, AEB-L has been getting a lot more attention lately and a lot of mid-tech and handmade knives seem to be using it more often.

graph provided by zknives.com

That's true but the heat treat on those steels is average at best. Very few hit above 60hrc, which is where Aeb-l/13c26 shines. Kershaw used 13c26 in a few models and ran it at 55-57hrc, made for a terrible knife.
Also those knives are ground to thick behind the edge. The beauty of Aeb-l and Sandvick steels is high edge stability even at high hardness. You want a knife that's 10 thou and 62hrc but get one that's 25-30 thou at 57-59 hrc. Why? That's like taking a Lamborghini and putting a tow hitch on it to tow your camper. Will it work, I guess but there are better options .

 

[Mrs_Esterhouse]

Why do so many knife manufacturers f-up the heat treat? Isn't it literally just baking the blades in a kiln at a certain temp for a certain time to attain the proper hardness? It seems like once you properly dial it in, it should be easily repeatable batch, after batch, after batch, no?

 

[JParanee]

For big blades and swords I’ll take a properly differentially heat treated carbon steel blade over everything else