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Oh. Again, huh?
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Non-vanadium super steels?
- Thread starter dkb45
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Oh. Again, huh?
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Tungsten carbide is less hard than Vanadium carbide while still being very hard. So is niobium carbide. Chromium and molybdenum carbide are hard carbides too but are much less hard than v or t or n carbides.
Really the best supesteel for you might be interested in is the ZDP steel. Unlike many supersteels which have hard carbides within the steel matrix. In zdp the steel itself can be made very hard.
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Good list of steels Shawn. Sleipner should be in there. It's a good performing steel with a good toughness/wear resistance balance with decent corrosion resistance. Not great at any but not bad at any either. Decent edge stability too. Somewhere in the CPM 154 to 3V bracket wear resistance wise with the hardness of the steel selected making a big difference. Not up to 4V and S30V wear resistance.
D2 and D3 are pretty good non vanadium carbide steels too. They are overshadowed now but used to be considered pretty good performing steels.
I would love to add F3 up to F8 carbon tungsten steels but for all practical purposes they no longer exist. At least here in the US. Sort of midway between a carbon steel and a high speed steel with Tungsten being the carbide former ( http://zknives.com/knives/steels/f8.shtml ) Wayne Goddard is about the only one that has wrote about this steel and it was not much at that. http://sharpeningmadeeasy.com/edge.htm
T1 http://www.zknives.com/knives/steels/steelgraph.php?nm=t1and T15 steels have been used in knives. Not often but they have been used. Farid used to offer T1 as an option in his customs. I've tried some unusual HSS but I still haven't tried these.
Joe
D2 and D3 are pretty good non vanadium carbide steels too. They are overshadowed now but used to be considered pretty good performing steels.
I would love to add F3 up to F8 carbon tungsten steels but for all practical purposes they no longer exist. At least here in the US. Sort of midway between a carbon steel and a high speed steel with Tungsten being the carbide former ( http://zknives.com/knives/steels/f8.shtml ) Wayne Goddard is about the only one that has wrote about this steel and it was not much at that. http://sharpeningmadeeasy.com/edge.htm
T1 http://www.zknives.com/knives/steels/steelgraph.php?nm=t1and T15 steels have been used in knives. Not often but they have been used. Farid used to offer T1 as an option in his customs. I've tried some unusual HSS but I still haven't tried these.
Joe
Why would diamond hones help apex stability?
Like you, I found S30V (and also CPM 154) to have terrible apex stability (micro-rolling the apex at the first contact with wood, or even, incredibly enough, while slicing cardboard -with a limited edition S30V Gerber Mark II-), and this while still being hard to sharpen with anything other than diamond hones. This was so bad, over several knives of all price ranges, I simply attributed this S30V awfulness to the CPM process.
It is true that a Chinese made Kershaw I had also astonished me by repeatedly micro-folding its edge in one slice on thin cardboard, and 7Cr17MoV is basically 440A with a bit of Vanadium added (although it is not clear how much).
VG-10 is decent but only has 0.2% Vanadium. S30V is 4%, so obviously that is not good. CPM-3V is 3% and was not good either.
You may be on to something. I still don't quite get what the sharpener has to do with apex stability.
Gaston
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Didn't know that about tungsten carbide in the steel matrix. I thought steels were pretty much just chromium or vanadium carbides (but I remember hearing something about niobium and molybdenum carbides in razor steels, could be wrong on that).
As for ZDP, I do like the stuff. Takes a really nice shine, isn't terribly hard to sharpen considering the hardness, and it takes a great edge. First knife I got a mirror finish on without hours of stropping was actually ZDP, can't remember if it was my Caly or Dragonfly.
I'm not allowed to dislike the most prolific steels on the market? I've gotten a newfound respect for S35VN because I've apparently just had softer ran stuff in the past, but I just don't like the terrible razor edge retention of S30V. It isn't a bad steel, I just don't care for the properties of it.
Diamond helps the stability because being able to abrade the carbides and matrix doesn't leave you with unsupported carbides that deform or tear out when the knife is used. Using diamond stones but traditional stropping compound (not diamond or CBN) can cause stropping to leave you with an edge with poor stability, and rolls really easily as I've experienced with steels containing 3% vanandium or higher. Some people can get high vanadium steels to work with SiC stones, but I can't get it to give me good stability without diamond stropping compound.
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What do you mean by this? Either SiC can abrade the carbides evenly with the steel matrix, or it can't. How can "some" people just magically make it work?
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SiC is not hard enough to abrade vanadium carbides, but technique could be the deciding factor in it working well. All I know is going from diamond stones to traditional stropping compound gives you a very rolly edge, but the rolled edge is easily corrected and still stays nice and sharp. It's really strange how it works.
navman
Knifemaker / Craftsman / Service Provider
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Actually, SiC should work to abrade Vanadium Carbide laden steel, just not as efficiently or fast as Diamond will.
Check this out:
https://www.bladeforums.com/threads/carbide-hardness-data.1514372/
The issue comes with water stones or other traditional oil/water lubricated sharpeners. They will abrade the surrounding steel matrix, but are NOT hard enough to abrade Vanadium carbides in the steel. This potentially leads to the feared "Carbide tear-out."
I have been using DMT diamond flat hones for years on the high carbide steels (S90V/S110V/10V) and have never had any issues, but I also don't take those steels to a highly polished edge. I find that they tend to cut more efficiently with a less polished edge. Works for me, your mileage may vary.
Check this out:
https://www.bladeforums.com/threads/carbide-hardness-data.1514372/
The issue comes with water stones or other traditional oil/water lubricated sharpeners. They will abrade the surrounding steel matrix, but are NOT hard enough to abrade Vanadium carbides in the steel. This potentially leads to the feared "Carbide tear-out."
I have been using DMT diamond flat hones for years on the high carbide steels (S90V/S110V/10V) and have never had any issues, but I also don't take those steels to a highly polished edge. I find that they tend to cut more efficiently with a less polished edge. Works for me, your mileage may vary.
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Traditional stropping compound is AO. What happens if you stop at the diamond stone and skip the stropping altogether?
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You get a less pretty, less keen edge, and it doesn't roll or otherwise act funky. Worst I've gotten without stropping is a tiny bit of deformation, but that could be from inclusions in the cardboard. I cut a lot of cardboard.
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Have you ever tried stropping with cardboard? I wonder how that would hold up compared to traditional stropping compound.
Can you make comparison / only abrasion resistance / between HSS and high end stainless like M390 ? Thanks !
Last edited:
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Yes, cardboard is VERY abrasive. As long as you don't overdo it, it kinda makes sense to strop with the same abrasive that you're going to be using the knife to cut.
Let’s throw a useless wrench into this situation 
. Much like eating your veggies, you need to get diamond, silicon carbide, or even 3m wet/dry to get your initial edge. Those vanadium carbides are just a beauty at resisting wear, both from cutting cardboard to you trying to sharpen. So I believe that this is fighting fire with fire.
Just to throw another wrench into it: you can always recommend a harbor freight diamond block lol jk.
. Much like eating your veggies, you need to get diamond, silicon carbide, or even 3m wet/dry to get your initial edge. Those vanadium carbides are just a beauty at resisting wear, both from cutting cardboard to you trying to sharpen. So I believe that this is fighting fire with fire.Just to throw another wrench into it: you can always recommend a harbor freight diamond block lol jk.
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Those are the tungsten carbided steels I was thinking of. F3 to F8. Why don’t we ever see them in knives I have always wondered? Seems like a steel I would be interested to try. Maybe it’s time to send Spyderco a letter.
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The best decision you can make as a knife guy. It will really allow you to unlock the True potential of your knives and make knives even MORE addictive. Then you can truly explore knife performance you'll find that most of the time people's various accounts of steel performance really comes down to how the knives are sharpened not the steel. Just like how you want the right steel and design for the given job/task you also can select the right edge geometry, angles, finish and abrasives to really synergize the performance.
The learning curve can be steep but no one is BORN a sharpener so just stick with it.
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Oh I’m not telling you what you’re allowed to do. It’s just that...we've all heard your thoughts on this before. Many, many times. One merely wonders why they need such constant repetition.
What about LC200N? Users are reporting it has plain edge retention similar to S30V and it doesn't have any vanadium in it. Also, it's practically rust proof, at least in any realistic environment.
It's not a PM steel but rather a PESR steel, that stands for pressurized electro slag remelting...I have no idea what that means beyond that, but it sounds cool.
It's not a PM steel but rather a PESR steel, that stands for pressurized electro slag remelting...I have no idea what that means beyond that, but it sounds cool.