Non-vanadium super steels?

dkb45 said:
Isn't tungsten carbide as hard, if not harder, than vanadium carbide? Wouldn't that be the same issue where the carbides are plentiful and plow out or deform from the matrix steel being weakened?
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I wonder if the CPM process itself does not have the same effect, especially under chopping impact.

I've yet to see to see a CPM that doesn't micro-roll easily, but so far I only tried S30V, CPM 154 and CPM 3V. Of those, 3V was maybe a little better (while being easier to sharpen), but still nowhere near the chopping fine edge holding I now expect from 420J (which is even easier to sharpen): Taiwanese 420J will do 200 hits on Maple before barely starting to tear phonebook paper... The fascinating thing is that this edge holding of cheap 420J completely disappeared after a prolonged soak in -30 C temperatures: Massive deformations in less than a dozen hits on the same dry wood...

Gaston
 
Gaston444 said:
I wonder if the CPM process itself does not have the same effect, especially under chopping impact.

I've yet to see to see a CPM that doesn't micro-roll easily, but so far I only tried S30V, CPM 154 and CPM 3V. Of those, 3V was maybe a little better (while being easier to sharpen), but still nowhere near the chopping fine edge holding I now expect from 420J (which is even easier to sharpen): Taiwanese 420J will do 200 hits on Maple before barely starting to tear phonebook paper... The fascinating thing is that this edge holding of cheap 420J completely disappeared after a prolonged soak in -30 C temperatures: Massive deformations in less than a dozen hits on the same dry wood...

Gaston
Click to expand...
So, have you tried CPM154 or CPM3V with a prolonged -30 C soak?
 
"Those are the tungsten carbided steels I was thinking of. F3 to F8. Why don’t we ever see them in knives I have always wondered? Seems like a steel I would be interested to try. Maybe it’s time to send Spyderco a letter."

Lapedog, If these steels were available Sal would have already checked into them performance and availability wise. Everywhere I go I find he was there several years before. :) The industries seem to have moved on from the Finishing series steels so the foundries have stopped production. One would have to order a 50-80 K pound heat then have it rolled out the needed sizes. Not going to happen for just an experiment which is what we are talking about. There are so many other great steels ready to go already on the shelf . Sal is going to try the ones he can get like Super Blue, V-Toku etc.

And if some ever shows up someone will grab it.

Joe
 
"I've yet to see to see a CPM that doesn't micro-roll easily, but so far I only tried S30V, CPM 154 and CPM 3V."

When I find the limits of a steel I back off a bit and retest. Perhaps thicker and with a 35-40 degree inclusive angle. If you are getting better performance with 420J ( at no higher than rc 53-54) and after checking your sharpening technique to eliminate problems there you might want to look to see if the knives are counterfeits. Do you have experience with knives in steels that have true high edge stability in order to use as a reference standard? S30V is not going to have the stability of W2/O1/52100 because it is a stainless steel with a bunch of carbides but it is no slouch either. These steels ( powder steels) can retain and hide a burr very stubbornly. My guess is that is what is causing the effects you see. This can fool very experienced users and has many times here over the years.

Joe
 
The Mastiff said:
"Those are the tungsten carbided steels I was thinking of. F3 to F8. Why don’t we ever see them in knives I have always wondered? Seems like a steel I would be interested to try. Maybe it’s time to send Spyderco a letter."

Lapedog, If these steels were available Sal would have already checked into them performance and availability wise. Everywhere I go I find he was there several years before. :) The industries seem to have moved on from the Finishing series steels so the foundries have stopped production. One would have to order a 50-80 K pound heat then have it rolled out the needed sizes. Not going to happen for just an experiment which is what we are talking about. There are so many other great steels ready to go already on the shelf . Sal is going to try the ones he can get like Super Blue, V-Toku etc.

And if some ever shows up someone will grab it.

Joe
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F3-f8 seem to be AISInstandard steel types. There seems to only be one proprietary supplier producing f8 steel for example (according to zknives.com) which is Columbia Steel. They call their version of f8 Silvanite. This really shows they are not popular because it seems for almost any other steel you put into the Ap it comes up with a huge list of standards the steel is produced under and usually a big list of proprietary steels which are either idenical or very similar to that standard.

Some of the more specializes steels like m390 will have only a few aliases listed and a few other proprietary suppliers but i don’t think often see only one.
 
Here is an old listing of AISI steels and what the manufacturers cataloged them as.
http://www.varcoprecision.com/tools.html
Columbia is only into casting things now. They no longer produce these steels. F3 used to be made by 3 steel companies. Crucible and Latrobe were bought by Carpenter. If any still produce an F series steel I haven't found it. That means very little as I am certainly no expert and some of the companies are known to buy steel overseas and resell it rather than making it themselves. THey test and certify it like they made it so it's not really a problem but it makes finding out exactly who makes what and where nearly impossible to find out at our level. I'm sure that is proprietary to the companies for obvious reasons. That takes us back to where I said a company offered to make me a batch of whatever I wanted. Not real practical or useful but that is where I end the story until I find some company sitting on an old unused batch they want to get rid of because it has been in the warehouse since the 70's. :)

Joe
 
The Mastiff said:
"I've yet to see to see a CPM that doesn't micro-roll easily, but so far I only tried S30V, CPM 154 and CPM 3V."

When I find the limits of a steel I back off a bit and retest. Perhaps thicker and with a 35-40 degree inclusive angle. If you are getting better performance with 420J ( at no higher than rc 53-54) and after checking your sharpening technique to eliminate problems there you might want to look to see if the knives are counterfeits. Do you have experience with knives in steels that have true high edge stability in order to use as a reference standard? S30V is not going to have the stability of W2/O1/52100 because it is a stainless steel with a bunch of carbides but it is no slouch either. These steels ( powder steels) can retain and hide a burr very stubbornly. My guess is that is what is causing the effects you see. This can fool very experienced users and has many times here over the years.

Joe
Click to expand...

Run of the mill 420J has anywhere from 0.15 to 0.36% Carbon, 420 HC has 0.45%.

This means that, at its best, 420J is 0.09% behind 420HC in Carbon content...

According to this source:

http://www.simplytoolsteel.com/420HC-stainless-steel-data-sheet.html

420 HC can be hardened to 56-59 RC: Pretty much the same as any 440C.

Buck 110 users on this forum have routinely commented that 420 HC will outperform the other steels they can get on the 110. There is no real reason to think 420J is much different than that, and depending on carbon content and cleanness, it could even be the case that one source over another reverses this presumed "hierarchy".

CPM-3V knife was a Survive! GSO-10. It was not affected by -30C weather, so at this temperature it vastly outperformed the Chinese 420J. CPM-3V even seemed to do better in the cold than it did in normal temps...

The S30V I tested was on an $2000 RJ Martin "Blackbird" (10.5" blade) "The Vanguard collection" #12 of 20, and it was tested continuously over two years, trying to cold-sharpen it out of a hypothetical "bad layer". After two years of watching it micro-fold its apex on Maple from single or less than 5 hits, I finally realized it was just hard to sharpen steel that would not hold an edge. CPM 154 was from a $700 Martin Knives, and was the same.

The Gerber Mark II 70th anniversary in S30V would micro-fold from single or double slices in the 1/8" thick cardboard of a 12 pack Evian water bottle box. After that I concluded S30V was not suitable for knife steel.

By micro-folding I mean only detectable with nail shavings.

By comparison, a United Cutlery Rambo II clone (420J) was chopped about 50 times into Maple (18 dps+20 dps micro bevel), and, testing by slicing phonebook paper and nail rubbing, no fine edge or rolling loss was detectable, to the point that no touch-up was required. A similar (but less well made) Master Cutlery RII clone, also in 420J, went up 100-120 hits with no detectable loss: Only minor edge loss at 200 hits, no rolling: The best of any steel I have ever tested, ignoring the numerous variables. (Including my INFI Battlesaw, which did nowhere near as well, the edge warping from side to side easily, despite being convexed, and generally thicker edged than the United, although the 10 extra ounces weight made it hit much harder, which does stress a thin convex edge more)

420J was also among the easiest to sharpen, like a perfect cross between Carbon steel and Stainless: The steel I wish all my knives were made of...

If Buck does well with 420HC, do you really think there is any appreciable difference because 420J has 0.09% less Carbon? I really doubt it.

Regardless of how absolutely accurate this overall picture is, it is worthwhile to point out that, in most people's minds, 420J is basically for display purposes only. Hm-mh.

Gaston


420J vs CPM 3V: About 40 hits on Maple (one very bad mis-hit on the MC explain the one short nail shavings area)
mIeHe6j.jpg


S30V: 2-3 hits on Maple in two separate edge areas (so 4-6 hits total): You can see the nail shavings from separate micro-folded areas from the intended separate areas of the very few hits. Over 2 years and many re-sharpenings, the result was always the same:

euFfwCS.jpg


G.
 
Last edited:
Gaston444 said:
Run of the mill 420J has anywhere from 0.15 to 0.36% Carbon, 420 HC has 0.45%.

This means that, at its best, 420J is 0.09% behind 420HC in Carbon content...

According to this source:

http://www.simplytoolsteel.com/420HC-stainless-steel-data-sheet.html

420 HC can be hardened to 56-59 RC: Pretty much the same as any 440C.

Buck 110 users on this forum have routinely commented that 420 HC will outperform the other steels they can get on the 110. There is no real reason to think 420J is much different than that, and depending on carbon content and cleanness, it could even be the case that one source over another reverses this presumed "hierarchy".

CPM-3V knife was a Survive! GSO-10. It was not affected by -30C weather, so at this temperature it vastly outperformed the Chinese 420J. CPM-3V even seemed to do better in the cold than it did in normal temps...

The S30V I tested was on an $2000 RJ Martin "Blackbird" (10.5" blade) "The Vanguard collection" #12 of 20, and it was tested continuously over two years, trying to cold-sharpen it out of a hypothetical "bad layer". After two years of watching it micro-fold its apex on Maple from single or less than 5 hits, I finally realized it was just hard to sharpen steel that would not hold an edge. CPM 154 was from a $700 Martin Knives, and was the same.

The Gerber Mark II 70th anniversary in S30V would micro-fold from single or double slices in the 1/8" thick cardboard of a 12 pack Evian water bottle box. After that I concluded S30V was not suitable for knife steel.

By micro-folding I mean only detectable with nail shavings.

By comparison, a United Cutlery Rambo II clone (420J) was chopped about 50 times into Maple (18 dps+20 dps micro bevel), and, testing by slicing phonebook paper and nail rubbing, no fine edge or rolling loss was detectable, to the point that no touch-up was required. A similar (but less well made) Master Cutlery RII clone, also in 420J, went up 100-120 hits with no detectable loss: Only minor edge loss at 200 hits, no rolling: The best of any steel I have ever tested, ignoring the numerous variables. (Including my INFI Battlesaw which did nowhere near as well, the edge warping from side to side easily, despite being convexed, and generally thicker edged than the United, although the 10 extra ounces weight made it hit much harder, which does stress a thin convex edge more)

420J was also among the easiest to sharpen, like a perfect cross between Carbon steel and Stainless: The steel I wish all my knives were made of...

If Buck does well with 420HC, do you really think there is any appreciable difference because 420J has 0.09% less Carbon? I really doubt it.

Gaston
420J vs CPM 3V: About 40 hits on Maple (one very bad mis-hit on the MC explain the one short nail shavings area)
mIeHe6j.jpg


S30V: 2-3 hits on Maple in two separate edge areas (so 4-6 hits total): You can see the nail shavings from separate micro-folded areas from the intended separate areas of the very few hits. Over 2 years and many re-sharpenings, the result was always the same:

euFfwCS.jpg


G.
Click to expand...

Don’t you ever get tired of typing the same post? You know it is possible to talk about something else right?
 
Gaston444 said:
I wonder if the CPM process itself does not have the same effect, especially under chopping impact.

I've yet to see to see a CPM that doesn't micro-roll easily, but so far I only tried S30V, CPM 154 and CPM 3V. Of those, 3V was maybe a little better (while being easier to sharpen), but still nowhere near the chopping fine edge holding I now expect from 420J (which is even easier to sharpen): Taiwanese 420J will do 200 hits on Maple before barely starting to tear phonebook paper... The fascinating thing is that this edge holding of cheap 420J completely disappeared after a prolonged soak in -30 C temperatures: Massive deformations in less than a dozen hits on the same dry wood...

Gaston
Click to expand...
I figured it out, you use a pull through carbide bit sharpener.
 
"If Buck does well with 420HC, do you really think there is any appreciable difference because 420J has 0.09% less Carbon? I really doubt it."

Gaston, Buck does very well with 420HC. You can't say they are the same or similar steels. The 420HC was made with the extra carbon because the 420j/420 steel was too low performing. The extra carbon allows it to reach the higher hardness Buck runs it at . If you test the hardness on your 420j steel you will find it well below what Buck runs theirs at.

Am I saying it's a bad steel? No. You probably recall me recommending the 420J knives to you for toughness and corrosion resistance so I'm not putting them down. They aren't the same performing steel though and they aren't intended to be.

I can't tell anything from your pictures and I doubt anyone else can. I still believe there is something going on at the edge with your knives aside from what you think it is. I'm not a big stainless guy anyways and think there is no stainless steel I would have in knives the size of yours doing the things you talk about doing. There are too many better alloys for the large knife/chopper class of knives. I grew up with non stainless steels and feel plenty comfortable there. I maintain all my knives to where corrosion isn't a problem. If it did corrode I would sand the rust out and still not worry about it.

You should be looking at 5160 and 1084 for your use. L6 if you regularly go out in the deep cold below zero F weather. You should not be touching wood with your knives at those temps anyways unless it's to do something other than chopping. All steel gets brittle at -20 F. Some much worse than others. L6 is one of the more recommended ones at the low temps. Axes too thin will chip out in the severe cold ( I used to live up north and heated the house with wood). I used a splitting maul on wood.

Joe
 
Nobody says that Buck 420HC is better than other steels Buck uses. They do say they like the steel a lot with Buck's heat treat and it holds an edge acceptably well for their uses.

Nobody that I know of would ever say that bargain basement el cheapo 420J holds an edge better than the super steels. 420J is a rather weak low end stainless and has low wear resistance and low impact resistance. It is the steel used in most very cheap (as in cheap) knives because it is easy to machine. Anyone who has actually used this steel knows it is ver low caliber.

I think this guy is either seriously misinformed, or perhaps trying to jerk our chains. Or, it could be too much LSD.
 
DocT said:
Nobody says that Buck 420HC is better than other steels Buck uses. They do say they like the steel a lot with Buck's heat treat and it holds an edge acceptably well for their uses.

Nobody that I know of would ever say that bargain basement el cheapo 420J holds an edge better than the super steels. 420J is a rather weak low end stainless and has low wear resistance and low impact resistance. It is the steel used in most very cheap (as in cheap) knives because it is easy to machine. Anyone who has actually used this steel knows it is ver low caliber.

I think this guy is either seriously misinformed, or perhaps trying to jerk our chains. Or, it could be too much LSD.
Click to expand...
By his own admission, Gaston doesn't actually use his knives. He uses exacto blades (without a handle) to cut things.
 
DocT said:
Nobody says that Buck 420HC is better than other steels Buck uses. They do say they like the steel a lot with Buck's heat treat and it holds an edge acceptably well for their uses.

Nobody that I know of would ever say that bargain basement el cheapo 420J holds an edge better than the super steels. 420J is a rather weak low end stainless and has low wear resistance and low impact resistance. It is the steel used in most very cheap (as in cheap) knives because it is easy to machine. Anyone who has actually used this steel knows it is ver low caliber.

I think this guy is either seriously misinformed, or perhaps trying to jerk our chains. Or, it could be too much LSD.
Click to expand...

He’s notorious for knowingly posting false information about CPM steels. He just does it to get responses. Nothing he says is real. It’s all best ignored.
 
Gaston444 said:
Buck 110 users on this forum have routinely commented that 420 HC will outperform the other steels they can get on the 110.
Click to expand...
Please provide a link to, or quote of, these routine comments.

I recall members stating that 420HC is a good, adequate steel, and that one can buy versions of the 110 with upgraded steels.
 
I'm not one to focus a thread on another member of the forum but I will talk about the performance of steel and knife use.

When I take a knife to it's limit and find the edge failing I don't then want to throw away the knife and call it names. I adjust the edge to where it can do what I want it to. What you ask of it has to be reasonable though. S30V at high hardness ( rc 59-ish) is not a steel that is my first choice in a knife I will chop or baton with. Lets go with something like 5160.

"But 5160 rusts!" Ok. So maintain it properly. It's not rocket science.

I won't try to justify ownership of honking large knives by claiming I need to chop wood with them. Even my grandmother wouldn't have bought that one. If chopping wood is my need I will get the best tool for it and not try to get something unsuited and make it work. If I want a Rambo knife I will not claim I want it because it's for chopping wood.

So, we look at the problems. Design unsuited to the job with the incorrect geometry, poor choice of steel.

Instead of complaining and blaming others I'd be learning from my mistakes and certainly not repeating them over and over. I'd get something suited to my needs and not what I think is sexy. Sounds simple.

Joe
 
The Mastiff said:
I'm not one to focus a thread on another member of the forum but I will talk about the performance of steel and knife use.

When I take a knife to it's limit and find the edge failing I don't then want to throw away the knife and call it names. I adjust the edge to where it can do what I want it to. What you ask of it has to be reasonable though. S30V at high hardness ( rc 59-ish) is not a steel that is my first choice in a knife I will chop or baton with. Lets go with something like 5160.

"But 5160 rusts!" Ok. So maintain it properly. It's not rocket science.

I won't try to justify ownership of honking large knives by claiming I need to chop wood with them. Even my grandmother wouldn't have bought that one. If chopping wood is my need I will get the best tool for it and not try to get something unsuited and make it work. If I want a Rambo knife I will not claim I want it because it's for chopping wood.

So, we look at the problems. Design unsuited to the job with the incorrect geometry, poor choice of steel.

Instead of complaining and blaming others I'd be learning from my mistakes and certainly not repeating them over and over. I'd get something suited to my needs and not what I think is sexy. Sounds simple.

Joe
Click to expand...
Very well stated.
 
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