Northwoods Scagel

I don't know whats not to get John. He said in the original post " is there anyway to get this fixed without having to send it in to NorthWoods and wait a week" and I offered my answer to get it up to par to make a good user out of it faster than a week. At least thats the way I see it. You ask me like I created the situation he is in but the fact is whether we like it or not, know all the facts or not, whether its fair or not that is the boat this gent is in for whatever reasons.

I just tried to offer another option. If all he wants is to have it tightened up at the pivot because it has a 'half inch of play' both ways (the pins on mine are not long enough to handle that kind of lateral movement without popping apart by the way) I don't see how its going to cost him all much and knowing Bob he'd work with the guy. Knowing Bob he'd do it between other jobs and would not ask for much unless the guy decides to replace the 'thin' stag scales and adds more work which is entirely optional and nothing to do with making it work.



Ok the OP beat me to the info. I've got my answers there. Send it back to the dealer and be done with it.

EDIT: this part is irrelevant but I'll leave it. If the knife was new it can be replaced within a certain amount of time or returned for a refund from most reputable dealers. If however it was bought second hand that would explain the lack of warranty in my mind. No reciept same thing. Thats not Northwoods fault either. The fact is they are a small business. They do offer a warranty so something is not adding up here. Its the first I've heard that these knives are not covered without bolsters. All the rest of their products have a warranty. I happen to be friends with Dave Shirley and I'm going to check this out.

STR
 
I tried to reach Dave but he is out getting a hair cut. I did however speak with someone else and he said he thought Dave said to send it back to the dealer as a way of getting it resolved faster through Derrick than to wait on a repair. Not to say I know but it sounds like the limitations set by the original poster are behind the recommendation from NorthWoods but I'll find out since Dave is supposed to call me tomorrow morning when he gets back. As a repeat customer of this company and someone that has supported the dealer for their products, as well as the fact that Blade Forums just did a promtion for a 'bolsterles' stag folder as the forum knife that is being made up for members wanting one I want to know the scoop on this claim of not honoring a warranty on 'bolsterles' knives.

STR
 
wow i sure started some controversy. not that i meant to...but STR, from the 2 times i called Northwoods, hoping to get more info, both time it was said that they DO NOT warrant bolsterless knives. nothing was said about quicker repair or replacement through a dealer. i even said "so i basivally have a $150 paper weight?" all the guy who anwsered did was grunt. saying once again that they do not warrant bolsterless knives. and STR, please do let me know what dave has to say. this is a big concern for me. i really like alot of their products but if they dont stand behind them...lets just say that i have alot of companies vying for my buisness...and not jsut mine, but everyones...one thing i buy from them is more money in their pockets...atleast thats the way i see it...but please do let me know what you find out.
 
Ok just had a nice hour long talk on the phone with ole Dave on a lot of catchin' up but on this issue Dave said the following and I will paraphrase best I can on his behave.

For everything there is procedure. Normally the proper procedure when you buy a new car and have a problem is to take it back to the dealer where you got it bringing their attention to the problem to let them take care of it and or contact the manufacturer to be taken care of on their end for what needs done or to send the thing to them if it needs that. From his standpoint that is the case with knives too or at least that is how he sees it. So,when you get a knife that was defective out of the box from Northwoods send it back to the dealer, get a replacment and let the dealer get the knife taken care of through the Northwoods."

Dave said you did not tell him you stropped and reprofiled the knife and if you had told him that you did this with a bolsterless folder he or anyone else there would have then known it was a problem more than likely created by that action of stropping and the lateral pressure and stress that creates and not defective out of the box as you said. He said you led him to believe it was that way out of the box. Dave told me that had he known this about stropping it he would in all liklihood have said something else to you entirely about the procedure for that and he would in all liklihood have asked you why you stropped it and reprofiled it to use it when it was defective and why you didn't pack it up at that time and contact the dealer rather than continue to use it after sharpening it?

He also added that he did tell you to bring it to Derricks attention and the reason for this once again was based on the information he was given so that they could take care of it following the proper procedure for what you described happened. Lastly he said he does have a warranty on all products until he is dead. He does not cover things like abuse, misuse, improper handling and feels that any bolsterless folder not using birds eye pivots to add greater support at the pivot should not be used with a lot of lateral pressure or it can and often will cause the sides to spread out. Stag by itself is not strong enough to support that repeated type of action and the stress it causes can do just what you have described but he did add its easily fixed but will require mailing it in and a wait period. Overall he was saddened by the fact that he is unable to get on blade forums to reply personally and asked me to do so for him. He assures everyone that their warranty is a good one and he is confident that the quality control is also top notch. He has a lot of reservations about believing that the folder got out with that much play but he recognizes that things do happen. He was just trying to take care of it following the procedure to expedite things best way possible for the end line user.

STR
 
If the man thinks stropping a folder can create lateral play at the pivot, then I guarantee I will never own a Northwoods. When the manufacturer thinks that a sharpening step is abusive to his product, he demonstrates absolutely zero confidence in his wares. The knife has liners, the stag is irrelevant. just my opinion.
 
hardheart said:
If the man thinks stropping a folder can create lateral play at the pivot, then I guarantee I will never own a Northwoods. When the manufacturer thinks that a sharpening step is abusive to his product, he demonstrates absolutely zero confidence in his wares. The knife has liners, the stag is irrelevant. just my opinion.
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Lateral play can develop from stropping. Thats common sense. Any bolsterless slip joint can develop blade play laterally from this Hardheart. Any repairman knows that. Thats why bolsters were needed and used in the first place. They are not just for looks on those slip joints. The bolsterless will not hold up as well to that kind of stress. Thats just how it is. We are talking about stropping. Stropping is done more ways than just zipping the blade up and down on a loose leather. Its often times done hard with pressure on a pad on a hard surface as well and this will cause problems. For example, I've had pivot pins need retightened on screw type pivots after doing this with knives just from pushing hard to strop them on a cardboard on a hard surface with no other available reason for why the pivot would be suddenly in need of taking out some play. By the way, Dave didn't say he wouldn't cover it. He indicated it changed the procedure. In this case it was not a knife sent to the dealer that was defective, it was something caused from use in his mind which meant it was not the dealer problem any longer. A little detail that was not mentioned.

STR
 
sorry, but anything that can be done to straight razors isn't going to damage one of my knives. I just have to make sure they are built to handle hand pressure against leather and cardboard.

When my work knife for 3 years had a frn handle with no liners, and it didn't develop slop from offshore oilfield work, when my $2 Imperial Schrade with stamped steel 'bolsters' (that make no contact at all with the pivot) capping the plastic scales doesn't wear from heavy reprofiling pressure on a D8XX, when I haven't had this problem on any productions or customs, I just don't think I can swallow owning a knife that can't take it.
 
I see a lot of folders for repairs my friend and ole Dave's statement is on par with what I have seen and I'd have to agree with him on this. Do you have any idea how many FRN folders I repair or rebuild from wearing out in any given year? Stropping a straight razor is not as stressful on the pivot as it is the way I described but I guarantee you if you were to hard press strop one it would certainly affect the pivot over time.

I'm not going to argue back and forth with you about something commonly known by most guys that do what I do ok? Its something that can be readily done with any bolsterless knife to duplicate the effect and in fact you can do it with any screw type folder and eventually find that unless the pivot has been loctited down good it can lead to some play in those as well. Some may take longer than others to show the signs depending on materials used and head size of the pivot pin among other things but there is a reason bolsters are used at the pivot, and there is a reason birdseye pins are used (pivots with a larger diameter outside metal ring surrounding the pin) and its to add more strength against lateral stress on bolsterless slip joints. Look at the Shadow folder sold by Ken Coats in the for sale forum that I just bought or the black one he just sold a couple days ago. Thats basically a classic birdseye pivot. Its there for a reason besides adding a neat look.

STR
 
Funny thing. I just checked my email and have a contact from someone asking if I can take out lateral play that has developed in his all stainless Police folder by Spyderco. Guess why?

STR
 
My main issue is that after one resharpening, on a brand new knife, this fellow, without even SEEING the thing, automatically lays the blame at the owner and does not want to deal with it. Want the consumer to contact the seller first? Fine. But, once the consumer decides to contact you instead, don't scoff. You don't put your company name and info on the box and then act surprised when someone bothers to drop you a line about an issue. And once they do, don't blow them off as if you can diagnose the problem over the phone or through email.

I don't put a lot of pressure on my knives when stropping. In fact, about the only thing I do to my knives that applies less lateral pressure is look at them. I use light pressure to refine the finish on the edge so I can more easily split hairs and do other neat tricks. I won't buy a Northwoods not so much because of the construction and stropping concerns (though that does bother me that it is assumed it can be so easily damaged when I pry with bolsterless sak knockoffs) but because of the reactions given by the company, and how I figure I'm going to be blamed if I end up with a defect.

I don't know what actually happened to this knife. Neither does your friend Dave. He's just too quick to blame crbauhs, imo.
 
STR said:
Funny thing. I just checked my email and have a contact from someone asking if I can take out lateral play that has developed in his all stainless Police folder by Spyderco. Guess why?

STR
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stropping it brand new out of the box?
 
str thanks for the info from dave. here is what i have to say in response and i do not mean any harm when i say these things. dve seems like a nic guy. first off, i never even knew i talked to dave. second, to my memory, which is pretty good for a 20 year old, he never said anything about shipping it back to the dealer. not a single thing, he jsut said it was not covered by warranty. now i am in no way an expert on bolsterlee/or bolstered knives for that matter, but i do know this. when i get a band new knife, the first thing i do is check blade play. this had it, except what i considered to be an acceptable amount. but when i take the edge to my spydeco white rods, LIGHTLY, and then strp on my belt which is kinda slack, and then can stck paper, comp paper, beetween the scales and liners, and the liner and pivot tang then something is wrong. also, my big thing here for me, is that i can, with a covered point, push the pivot pin back and forth. meaning it is not peened correctly. these are all things that i DOUBT i was able to do on my own from 10 passes on the fine rods and 10 more on my belt. and for me reprofiling means sharpening, rebeveling means putting new bevels on it completly. now i am once again not trying to start anything with anyone, but i was looking at what you said about his warranty. the only thing i told him was that i had a scagel #11 with alot o blade paly and wanted to know if it was covered by warrenty. the straight up said no. this was before they even knew i sharpened it. a straight no is a contradicition to what he told you.
 
an di have never cut anything with this knife other thna a peice of paper to see how sharp it was after my stropping. and i am not new to knives, i know how to strop and sharpen to get an ideal polished edge.
 
I understand what STR is saying , to a point , however via just one sharpening session with stropping , I can't buy it causing play , UNLESS it was incorrectly peened in the first place . Which I would suspect is the case if it happened after one sharpening , especially since it had not been used.

Or it could be the design ? I understand it is supposed to true to the original , however that pivot pin is way too close to the end of the knife for my tastes , especially for not having bolsters.
scagel12.jpg


Did it have play before sharpening ?
Did the original Scagels have this problem ? I ask in all honesty cause I have never followed them.
I am not looking to challenge STR's knowledge of repairs or knowledge of knifemaking , as I am sure he has forgot more than I know , but to me , logically , it just don't make sense for a knife , properly made , to develop blade play that easy.

Might make for a good discussion thread in the makers area , for tips,tricks, etc to avoid a knife developing this condition ??
 
the knife did have play when i got it out of the box. but to me an acceptable amount in a slippy. about as much as my case. but then the scales separated fromt he liner, i can see light on the other side. and i can make the knife have the original amount of blade play by squeezing the two scales together, but then one flex and they are separated again. i dont know if im being to picky about this, but my $20 34OT and $35 Case Trapper have better f&f than this. If you guys think im blowing this out of proportion then jsut tell me and ill drop it and go sell it on ebay.

p.s. john teh scagel i have is the single blade version. much niver imho
 
hardheart:
stropping it brand new out of the box?
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No not quite. Just repeated use and lateral stresses when using it certain ways. He says he can now squeeze it back some with his fingers and its fine but redevelops right quick.

Thats typical of what lateral stress can do to some pinned knives is all my point was.

Dave is entitled to get the facts. After I read the first post to him over the phone he felt he wasn't given all of them and was led to believe they shipped a dealer a faulty knife and for all we know or he knew they did. Point is he made his decision based on that yet he's damned if he does or damned if he doesn't come up with a reply adequate to please you.! He said, 'in all liklihood his reply would have been different if he'd known about the stropping." We can only speculate as to what that reply may have been. I just relay what he said. I must admit it does make you wonder. If the knife was faulty new out of the box why go on and sharpen it? If its just a paperweight as he claims then mail the darn thing back as defective to the dealer right there for a replacement which is just what Dave recommened to him. Seems cut and dry to me. If however a guy has a user knife and after its been in the pocket sharpened, used more and then has a problem the reply would be different. Is that so hard to follow? I don't think so.

Bolsterless knives have a warranty like all the others they make by the way. If you experience problems it doesn't mean they won't cover that it means they'll simply attribute it to normal symptoms from operator use instead of them sending out a defective folder. Its not so hard to follow the logic there to me based on the type folder it is and the size pins used and the handle scales used. Dave, like myself bases his view on years of dealing with knives. Suit yourself if it doesn't sit well with you or if you don't want to buy one of their folders now just because you think you know enough of the facts to base a conclusion on here or have a different opinion.
 
crbauhs said:
the knife did have play when i got it out of the box. but to me an acceptable amount in a slippy. about as much as my case. but then the scales separated fromt he liner, i can see light on the other side. and i can make the knife have the original amount of blade play by squeezing the two scales together, but then one flex and they are separated again. i dont know if im being to picky about this, but my $20 34OT and $35 Case Trapper have better f&f than this. If you guys think im blowing this out of proportion then jsut tell me and ill drop it and go sell it on ebay.

p.s. john teh scagel i have is the single blade version. much niver imho
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Then do as Dave suggested and mail it back to the dealer where it was bought. That is the quickest way for you to get another folder. Dave already called Derrick on your behave and is waiting to take care of whatever it needs between the two of them. If the liners separate send it in and get a new folder. Its not rocket science and it is a legit complaint. Anyone of us would be upset over that kind of money or even half that amount and a faulty knife. It happens.

STR
 
STR said:
No not quite. Just repeated use and lateral stresses when using it certain ways. He says he can now squeeze it back some with his fingers and its fine but redevelops right quick.

Thats typical of what lateral stress can do to some pinned knives is all my point was.

Dave is entitled to get the facts. After I read the first post to him over the phone he felt he wasn't given all of them and was led to believe they shipped a dealer a faulty knife and for all we know or he knew they did. Point is he made his decision based on that yet he's damned if he does or damned if he doesn't come up with a reply adequate to please you.! He said, 'in all liklihood his reply would have been different if he'd known about the stropping." We can only speculate as to what that reply may have been. I just relay what he said. I must admit it does make you wonder. If the knife was faulty new out of the box why go on and sharpen it? If its just a paperweight as he claims then mail the darn thing back as defective to the dealer right there for a replacement which is just what Dave recommened to him. Seems cut and dry to me. If however a guy has a user knife and after its been in the pocket sharpened, used more and then has a problem the reply would be different. Is that so hard to follow? I don't think so.

Bolsterless knives have a warranty like all the others they make by the way. If you experience problems it doesn't mean they won't cover that it means they'll simply attribute it to normal symptoms from operator use instead of them sending out a defective folder. Its not so hard to follow the logic there to me based on the type folder it is and the size pins used and the handle scales used. Dave, like myself bases his view on years of dealing with knives. Suit yourself if it doesn't sit well with you or if you don't want to buy one of their folders now just because you think you know enough of the facts to base a conclusion on here or have a different opinion.
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But thAT IS the thing STR, it wasnt by my specifications bad out of the box, only when i realized that the pivot pin was not done correctly. there is no way a sharpening and quick strop lengthened the pin. ANd i will say once again, i have never carried or used the knife for anything at all. i sharpened it, stropped it, and posted here. that is it. nothing else.
 
STR said:
Then do as Dave suggested and mail it back to the dealer where it was bought. That is the quickest way for you to get another folder. Dave already called Derrick on your behave and is waiting to take care of whatever it needs between the two of them. If the liners separate send it in and get a new folder. Its not rocket science and it is a legit complaint. Anyone of us would be upset over that kind of money or even half that amount and a faulty knife. It happens.

STR
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trust me STR i have contacted derrick and it is all worked out. i never even meant to start half of what is here. i was jsut giving a quick review. i am looking foreward to trying a new scagel from them. im jsut dissapointed with the way some things went down.
 
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