Northwoods Scagel

[hardheart]

well i want to send it back and i called askin bout their warrenty, but northwoods says they dont honor the warranty for bolsterless knives.

As for northwoods, they say that they wont support it because "it is made of stag and everyone knows to not flex a blade with stag scales side to side." their words not mine i promise. but im mean not even the liners were tight. i could move the pivot pin up and down the scales cause it was so long. doesnt that strike you as odd? and a manufaturer defect?

but im very dissapointed with northwoods.

even jsut speaking to the guys at northwoods, it seemed like they didnt really care. i am sure they have alot of great products, but all it takes is one really bad experience with a company

...and as for the blade play, the sclaes, liners, and pin itself move. i get a half inch of movement from side to side. that is alot of movement, even my case/buck/camilus/schrades/saks dont move that much.

from the 2 times i called Northwoods, hoping to get more info, both time it was said that they DO NOT warrant bolsterless knives. nothing was said about quicker repair or replacement through a dealer. i even said "so i basivally have a $150 paper weight?" all the guy who anwsered did was grunt. saying once again that they do not warrant bolsterless knives.

i really like alot of their products but if they dont stand behind them...lets just say that i have alot of companies vying for my buisness...and not jsut mine, but everyones

first off, i never even knew i talked to dave.

second, to my memory, which is pretty good for a 20 year old, he never said anything about shipping it back to the dealer. not a single thing, he jsut said it was not covered by warranty.

now i am in no way an expert on bolsterlee/or bolstered knives for that matter, but i do know this. when i get a band new knife, the first thing i do is check blade play. this had it, except what i considered to be an acceptable amount.

but when i take the edge to my spydeco white rods, LIGHTLY, and then strp on my belt which is kinda slack, and then can stck paper, comp paper, beetween the scales and liners, and the liner and pivot tang then something is wrong. also, my big thing here for me, is that i can, with a covered point, push the pivot pin back and forth. meaning it is not peened correctly. these are all things that i DOUBT i was able to do on my own from 10 passes on the fine rods and 10 more on my belt.

the only thing i told him was that i had a scagel #11 with alot o blade paly and wanted to know if it was covered by warrenty. the straight up said no. this was before they even knew i sharpened it. a straight no is a contradicition to what he told you.

the knife did have play when i got it out of the box. but to me an acceptable amount in a slippy. about as much as my case. but then the scales separated fromt he liner, i can see light on the other side. and i can make the knife have the original amount of blade play by squeezing the two scales together, but then one flex and they are separated again. i dont know if im being to picky about this, but my $20 34OT and $35 Case Trapper have better f&f than this.

Dave is entitled to get the facts. After I read the first post to him over the phone he felt he wasn't given all of them and was led to believe they shipped a dealer a faulty knife and for all we know or he knew they did. Point is he made his decision based on that yet he's damned if he does or damned if he doesn't come up with a reply adequate to please you.! He said, 'in all liklihood his reply would have been different if he'd known about the stropping." We can only speculate as to what that reply may have been. I just relay what he said.

I must admit it does make you wonder. If the knife was faulty new out of the box why go on and sharpen it? If its just a paperweight as he claims then mail the darn thing back as defective to the dealer right there for a replacement which is just what Dave recommened to him. Seems cut and dry to me. If however a guy has a user knife and after its been in the pocket sharpened, used more and then has a problem the reply would be different. Is that so hard to follow? I don't think so.

Bolsterless knives have a warranty like all the others they make by the way. If you experience problems it doesn't mean they won't cover that it means they'll simply attribute it to normal symptoms from operator use instead of them sending out a defective folder. Its not so hard to follow the logic there to me based on the type folder it is and the size pins used and the handle scales used.

What I get is that Dave thought the knife was defective, and based on this, not a belief of operator use/error, he told the customer that there was no warranty. If crbauhs is to be believed, then before any mention of the sharpening was made, he was told quite simply that Northwoods would not be handing out a replacement when Northwoods believed the knife was a factory defect.

There is either a misunderstanding or poor CS.

 

[STR]

I understand what STR is saying , to a point , however via just one sharpening session with stropping , I can't buy it causing play , UNLESS it was incorrectly peened in the first place . Which I would suspect is the case if it happened after one sharpening , especially since it had not been used.

Or it could be the design ? I understand it is supposed to true to the original , however that pivot pin is way too close to the end of the knife for my tastes , especially for not having bolsters.

Did it have play before sharpening ?
Did the original Scagels have this problem ? I ask in all honesty cause I have never followed them.
I am not looking to challenge STR's knowledge of repairs or knowledge of knifemaking , as I am sure he has forgot more than I know , but to me , logically , it just don't make sense for a knife , properly made , to develop blade play that easy.

Might make for a good discussion thread in the makers area , for tips,tricks, etc to avoid a knife developing this condition ??

No for the most part I agree that one use still indicates it was more than likely iffy to begin with. Its iffy I'll give you that for sure. And I did not mean to ignore you earlier John. My bad there. I saw your post and appreciate that.

From my experience, once the knife was sharpened more so than once it developed play is the real deal breaker here. You see from the stand point of NIB it is no longer a mint condition new in the box knife once its sharpened. Dave knows this, so do all of us, or at least I thought so. That is the contention point I think of why one procedure is different over another more so than what developed the movement laterally and not the play that is being talked about. I think we need to look at this now from the stand point of resale. What is Derrick supposed to do with a folder that is no longer new once Dave repairs it? Can he in all honesty sell the folder as new to someone else now? Not likely. Now in all likelihood this is the knife the Original poster will have to wait on to get back because he made it his the moment he sharpened it. Hope that makes sense.

STR

 

[STR]

trust me STR i have contacted derrick and it is all worked out. i never even meant to start half of what is here. i was jsut giving a quick review. i am looking foreward to trying a new scagel from them. im jsut dissapointed with the way some things went down.

In my opinion you are going to be lucky if you get a different folder. But we'll see. You may just to please you. If so count yourself lucky I'd say.

STR

 

[crbauhs]

here are some pictures that i jsut took to show you guys the gaps and spaces. not the greatest pics, but it shows why im unhappy.







THis should not be something that happens after 1 sharpening. and i would consider myself lucky STR. Im honestly not trying to be a pain in the arse but this is just wrong. If you sold one of your Ouperators(i believe thats what their called) and someone got one like this what would you do STR? tell em tough luck but you sharpened it and stropped it once so it is ur fault?

 

[crbauhs]

Also thanks everyone for giving me your opinions and helping me understand everything here better. I really hope i didnt got on anyone wrong sides.

 

[John T Wylie Jr]

Now in all likelihood this is the knife the Original poster will have to wait on to get back because he made it his the moment he sharpened it. Hope that makes sense.

I would agree with that , since it was sharpened , the OP will more than likely have to wait for this knife to be tightened , I also agree ( if it were me ) , I wouldn't expect a replacement.

Sounds like they just let a bad one slip thru , it happens , that is how the Cust Serv folks earn their pay

 

[STR]

here are some pictures that i jsut took to show you guys the gaps and spaces. not the greatest pics, but it shows why im unhappy.







THis should not be something that happens after 1 sharpening. and i would consider myself lucky STR. Im honestly not trying to be a pain in the arse but this is just wrong. If you sold one of your Ouperators(i believe thats what their called) and someone got one like this what would you do STR? tell em tough luck but you sharpened it and stropped it once so it is ur fault?

Being a custom you'd get the same knife back to your satisfaction. Truthfully though if someone sharpens it and scratches it up like I've seen some do, say using an Edge Pro without taping or by hand and slipping up, and then I have to refinish the blade to make it 'new again' to resell because you insisted on a new one then we'd have a problem to discuss. See my point?

You sharpened the folder. Now that my brain is working and I've had my go juice after being up half the night with a sick saint bernard I have had a chance to think some for why Dave's reaction may have been as it was. Its not so much the play but the fact that you made it yours by sharpening it that was probably going through his mind.

Then there is the other issue. If you like the stag next thread will be on a topic of how the new replacement has stag that isn't as nice or something like that. Stag is unique like that. If you like the one you have that is something to discuss with Derrick also in my opinion.

STR

 

[crbauhs]

honestly i understand completly what you are saying about if i sent it to you and you had to redo the blade finsh and everything. I can say that i did not slip up, jsut put on a micro bevel. NO stone work involved. And i understand completly where you are coming from. As for the stag, this was my first stag knife. Im not particular. Ive seen Dave's stag. I would be happy with any of it. It is all beautiufl stuff. The stag would be the LAST thing i would complain about. Also, i hope your saint bernard gets better.

"Being a custom you'd get the same knife back to your satisfaction." Im not sure what you mean by this. You'd fix it or send it back to them the way it was? not sure. and if i cant get it -being the scagel- replaced, but dave said he would fix it, i would be more than happy to do that. but i guarentee you that it was of no fault of my own that the knife is the way it is. sharpened or not, this knife had problems before it arrived to me.

 

[STR]

I believe you got a knife that was iffy to begin with and that the problem became more obvious after you sharpened it but again no one can blame Dave for his stance in my opinion. He can't rule out that it wasn't an operator done thing even if it was just once but I think overall the real contention again is that you made it yours when it could no longer be deemed still a new in the box folder. The more I think about it the more I think that is really from where they are coming from looking at it from the point of resale. I don't think any dealer wants to start dealing in 'used' knives anymore than a collector wants to buy a mint folder thats been in someone's pocket or sharpened once. Its not technically new or mint in either case regardless of whether it could slip under the cracks of someones observational skills or not once its been used or sharpened.

And yes I'd fix it if it were mine with the problem is what I meant to come across as saying. Then I'd mail it back after it was repaired and make sure you are satisfied before closing the book on it.

STR

 

[Kiah]

From what I can gather, the OP noticed it had some play out of the box, but considered it an acceptable level. After stropping, it developed even more, at which point he found it unacceptable.

I feel crbauhs has every right to complain on this. Without even knowing about the stropping yet, Northwoods said they wouldn't warranty the knife. That's bad CS.

While I don't have STR's experience, I've stropped and sharpened a few bolsterless knives. I've never had any blade play caused by it. And certainly not to the extent that the Scagel did.

I've looked at Northwood's knives before and considered buying, but never got around to it. I certainly wouldn't consider one as a user at this point.

1. Dismissive customer service.

2. Unknown warranty.

3. Sharpening is considered abuse on some models.

 

[STR]

Lets talk about this.

1. Dismissive customer service. Dave offered what he thought at the time was the best way to take care of the customer by suggesting he get it back to the dealer to get a new one expedited to him and let the dealer worry about the time frame issue. I see nothing dismissive here I see a guy trying to please a customer based on the information given to him by that customer.

2. Unknown warranty. They have a warranty as stated. Dave offered to fix the knife by replacing it through the dealer for the reasons given which is as good for the customer as a repair would be and the fastest way to make the customer happy in this case based on the customers own stated needs. Where do you see 'unknown warranty here? Unknown would be to simply say sorry you are stuck. Its sold as is. I mean really guys come on. Do you think for one sec that Derrick the dealer for this folder is the least bit worried about Dave and Northwoods taking care of him on this folder by covering him with a new one or a repair and clean up to make it presentable again?

3. Sharpening is considered abuse on some models.
Bit of a stretch here. Dave never said that. By his statement to me that he would in all liklihood have said something else to the OP if he had known about the sharpening it suggests to me that he would take into consideration the type of folder it was IE, bolsterless and still let Northwoods look at it instead of dumping it back on the dealer because its no longer new technically as I pointed out which is exactly what he'd have done had he been told about a user that had gone bad and not told it was a new in the box folder never used but straight from the dealer.

Its a fine line here and we have to give the benefit of the doubt on both sides. To the original poster we do that and understand the complaint hoping that he is being upfront and honest about his statements and to Dave for covering his own assets to be sure the knife is resellable and that the customer is happy trying to get a new knife back to the customer as soon as he can. It seems to me some of you guys expect him to bend over for the guy too and thats really biased in my opinion.

By the way, Dave has major interests in other companies besides Northwoods. You guys going to write all them off too?


STR

 

[hardheart]

Dave offered what he thought at the time was the best way to take care of the customer by suggesting he get it back to the dealer to get a new one expedited to him and let the dealer worry about the time frame issue.

Dave offered to fix the knife by replacing it through the dealer for the reasons given which is as good for the customer as a repair would be and the fastest way to make the customer happy in this case based on the customers own stated needs. Where do you see 'unknown warranty here? Unknown would be to simply say sorry you are stuck.

crbauhs said otherwise, I even quoted the lines. he says he was told flat out that bolsterless stag scale knives would not be warrantied, and that he was not told about replacement through the dealer. I don't know if you missed those lines, or just don't believe them.

 

[STR]

And Dave said that is not what he said. I asked him about that and was trying not to bring it up so I didn't end up inbetween a he said she said back and forth deal. The truth is more like my dad's old saying that there are three sides to every story. Yours, and mine and then somewhere in the middle is the truth.

STR

 

[John T Wylie Jr]

if you had told him that you did this with a bolsterless folder he or anyone else there would have then known it was a problem more than likely created by that action of stropping and the lateral pressure and stress that creates and not defective out of the box as you said.

Reading that it sounds as though they have run into this issue before , since he or anyone else there would have then known it was a problem more than likely created by that action of stropping , if that is indeed the case , perhaps they should have a disclaimer warning of such INCLUDED with the knife , or on the website , or have the dealers made aware of this.

To say that anyone there would know , makes it sound like it a known recurring problem by Northwoods , doesn't it ?

In the end , they are stepping up and taking care of the customer , which is what matters.

STR , if I were to purchase one of these exact knives , would you be able to change it over to the pivot you spoke of earlier ? If so , could you email me the cost ? Be much appreciated.

 

[STR]

You mean like put a standard 1/8" barrel and screw heads in it? Sure I could do that John, but the problem on the knife shown in this thread was something you nailed earlier. I'm not so sure I'd do that on this model with the pivot so close to the end but on mine I would not have an issue with that. The one I carry and use is one that was redone for me by my friend Oupa in some lignum wood found in the attic of what used to be Bill Scagel's work shop. I have stropped it a lot over the time I've had it and its never given me any issues but I can't say the same about the bigger model with the longer blade that Dirk also did for me in Teak. That one did develop a bit of lateral movement. I simply peened it and fixed it myself though. Its solid again now.

Is this job for you John? Contact me at my email if you still have it and I'll fix you up if so.

If interested you guys can see a few of my Scagel Northwoods users here. Some of them I sold, some I kept and will always have though. http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=571404

STR

 

[Kiah]

I had a lengthy reply halfway typed, and had to go work on a car. I didn't feel like finishing it when I got done, so I'll say this and be done with it.

I've owned a few bolsterless slippies. Soddies from a few different makers. Quite a few old knives with fake bolsters. And several SAKs.

I'll take the SAK's as an example, since they're the cheapest and still in production. I've owned at one point or another around 80 SAK's. I have never had one develop blade play or liner seperation from stropping or sharpening. That said, if it did happen, Victorinox or Wenger would replace it without hesitation. Now comparing an SAK to a Northwoods Scagel may seem silly considering the work involved and materials used. But when a $10 knife can hold up to something that a $160 knife can't, something is wrong. And when the maker of that $10 knife will stand behind it for life, while the latter will not, it seems a little odd to me.

The response the OP stated he received over the phone seemed dismissive to me. Maybe I'm over sensitive. As for KnivesShipFree, it's nice to know they are working this out, and they will have my future business on my next Barkie purchase.

 

[STR]

That ten buck knife known as a SAK is made using a stainless steel pivot pin with stainless pin contstruction sitting on a stainless steel liner under an overscale and the more expensive one is a reproduction of a classic Scagel design wiht nickel silver pins peened over a delicate stag which is a natural handle material known for splitting, cracking and giving some from the characteristics of the nature of it. It can be spongy on the underside if the enamel is not all the way through and that tends to give in. Big difference in wear and durability there for sure.

I've said my peace here as well. You guys go ahead and keep duking it out. I've got other things to do and the wife is griping at me to help her with stuff and get to off the &*%@! computer! I'll catch you all in another thread on another day.

STR

 

[Sword and Shield]

That ten buck knife known as a SAK is made using a stainless steel pivot pin with stainless pin contstruction sitting on a stainless steel liner under an overscale *snip*

Where are you getting SAKs with stainless pins and liners? I just popped the scales off a Camper and mine are brass pins with aluminum liners.

 

[Kiah]

Where are you getting SAKs with stainless pins and liners? I just popped the scales off a Camper and mine are brass pins with aluminum liners.

I've took dozens apart for cleaning or modification. They are all like that. Soft brass pins, aluminum liners, and overscales that'll bend in a stiff wind. I don't have an Alox model right now, but I believe they use brass pins too. Older models had brass liners.

 

[STR]

Really? Ok I'll take your word for that. My bad if so. I don't get many SAKs for work because I refer them out to my friend Dirk (Oupa) who likes working on them and I only have one of my own, which he also redid for me and the pins are silver on mine. Speaking of which, I could have sworn my Wenger liners stick to a magnet and the pins were stainless when the overscales popped off and broke but it could be they were replaced when it was redone by Dirk I don't know. I'll look in a bit. That was what I was thinking of when I wrote that.

While I have time though, my point regardless of the metal used in SAK liners is the aluminum liner or metal liner is where the head of the pin is secured on those folders no matter if its stainless or brass or nickel silver and the scale is popped on over the head of the pin used. Its not set up to where the head of the pin is secured/peened over the red plastic scale sticking out where it can be seen. If it were it would weaken it significantly. Surely we can agree on that point??? The steel liner or even aluminum, brass or nickel silver is a lot more stable than a head peened down over stag, bone or some other natural material like wood ore even plastic because all those can split if the screw is overpeened and that is my guess with what is going on with ones done that way when they separate. Something has to give and its more likely the weakest part which is the stag in this case.

STR