Noss beat the Ranger

That actually just reminded me that you can never leave out the possibility of a defective lot of steel. Scrapyard was having some problems a while back due to air pockets in the steel plates they were using that caused edge blowouts, the issues have since been resolved (IIRC)by cutting off a good portion of the outside of the plate.
 
shecky said:
This may be true. However I addressed this point in an earlier post. If it is true, then it didn't, in fact, survive the earlier abuse as well as has been perceived. All the claims of it's toughness under hammering/batoning are wrong. It would mean that it was doomed damage prior to being stepped on by Noss.
Click to expand...

Umm... what? I don't get what you're saying here. My point was that the body weight test itself was what was too tough for the Ranger. I don't believe it would have survived 225 pounds bouncing on it even if it had not been used to do anything at all before the test, including pulling it out of the sheath. I don't believe there was significant prior damage that somehow weakened the RD7 enough to fail the body weight test - no, it would have failed it even in mint condition, because 225 pounds on the handle was too damn much. I've seen an RD9 flex a lot myself, and I know of others who have flexed one into a C shape without harm. I believe the RD7 would have impressed in the flex test, if it had been done before the body weight test that broke it - the only reason, of course, is that it's hard to flex test a knife that is in pieces. I do not see how the claims of toughness under batoning are made wrong by this, and I would indeed like to know how and why you perceive it to be so. The RD7 wasn't doomed before Noss jumped on it. It became doomed when the jumping started. New or banged up, it was never going to take that stress. But, it would have, I believe, taken a lot in a flex test where it would be subject to less than those 225 pounds of Noss-hog jumping on the handle, without the blade of the knife having much of anywhere to flex.


No. Machetes are routinely tempered down to the range of Rc high 40s to low 50s. They cut well enough, and are trivially easy to sharpen, even when suffering serious damage.
Click to expand...

True, I forgot about machetes. They're not exactly what I think of when I hear the word "knife." They do cut like absolute steaming crap, though, as compared to any reasonably sized knife designed more for actual cutting than chopping. They are sure easy to sharpen, but have you ever tried skinning an animal with one, or carving wood? You'll lose whatever edge you had on the machete in an instant. And while you can sharpen it quickly, I don't like sharpening so much that I would make a hobby out of it.


This may be so. However, I don't think Noss ever even pretended to test such characteristics of knives. The last guy that did was banned.
Click to expand...

And I don't expect Noss to test such things. I like what he's doing now just fine. :thumbup: I do, however, advise people to remember that edge-holding factor as well: it's great to have a tough knife, but it's even greater to have a knife that actually holds an edge. If toughness was all that mattered, we'd all be using RC 48 knives made of 5/8" thick 1055. As for Cliff Stamp, I should think his banning had more to do with his use of English than with his testing of edge-holding.
 
G. Scott H. said:
That's just depressing, man. Seeing a $10 stainless China knife "out-tough" a Ranger.
As always, :thumbup::thumbup: :cool:
Click to expand...

Don't you guy's know the difference between a piece of steel that is not properly tempered and a piece of steel that has been tempered into a cutting tool usually known as knives? That $10 piece of crap was just typical of the crap being made in china and imported here to put some kid with a piece of cheap steel in his hand a buck in some greedy persons pocket! That $10 piece of crap failed miserably at it's purpose of being a knife! A piece of cheap steel that has not been tempered or one that is improperly tempered on the soft side will bend without breaking but will take a set like this ten buck garbage did and in order to break it you would generally have to bend it back and forth creating friction and seperating the grain. So it is extremely tough but is useless at it's intended purpose of being a knife as it absolutely will not hold a cutting edge and cannot be used to pry with since it will bend rather than seperate whatever you are prying .and some times they are very difficult to even get sharp enough to shave because they are too soft... In other words it is just nothing more than metal shaped like a knife with a knife handle installed. Some of you guys especially the younger ones perhaps should seek advice from an metallurgist on the subject before jumping to conclusions and making the mistake that a piece of metal is a knife... As far as noss goes... I like the guy and have talked to him several times in the past on here and i intend to go to his sight and request a photo of a tang on a knife i have because he destructed one like it... but, as long as he refuses to acknowledge these things about the properties of steel and differences between toughness and hardness etc. he wont ever be taken seriously by adult knife enthusiast and surely no one in the industry.
 
If you've been following this topic as Noss's place, you'll know he plans some edge retention tests on another one (CTD that is) he has. Maybe it won't hold an edge past 10 cuts on cardboard. Who knows? I'd rather wait to see the results before I label it a cheap, China-made piece of crap. It's definitely cheap and Chinese, but that doesn't necessarily equate to crap in every situation. We'll see how it does. :thumbup:
 
Elen said:
A knife that doesn't hold an edge isn't really something people will want to buy these days, when we have actually invented the crowbar. I wouldn't buy a knife that has been left so soft it won't hold an edge, even if it was the toughest knife in the world because of that.
Click to expand...

Exactly. Interesting point in a thread about a knife not surviving a crowbar test! :D
 
oh wow...
I think the ranger did good.
for the longest time knives didn't get much better than 4 starts in these tests.
:D
normally anything wqith 4 starts will hold up to most uses fine.

the ranger will holds a good edge and it's edge is pretty tough. (although I expect if different conrete was ued it would have had blowouts and tears, because I did get a tear in my rangers since I've thinned the edge. I hit a big bolt though) although it may not have amazing lateral strength for it's type of knife (it has good enough strength for me and I've got my rd9 to flex 30-35 degrees) it will def. last some pretty hard use.

the whole "brittle vs not brittle" debate is just rediculous...
while it may be on the "harder" side, it's not quite brittle, although I guess it can be under hard use.
 
G. Scott H. said:
If you've been following this topic as Noss's place, you'll know he plans some edge retention tests on another one (CTD that is) he has. Maybe it won't hold an edge past 10 cuts on cardboard. Who knows? I'd rather wait to see the results before I label it a cheap, China-made piece of crap. It's definitely cheap and Chinese, but that doesn't necessarily equate to crap in every situation. We'll see how it does. :thumbup:
Click to expand...

Well then how about we just label it what it is... A product of slave labor in the form of an knife like object.
 
sdt11670 said:
Don't you guy's know the difference between a piece of steel that is not properly tempered and a piece of steel that has been tempered into a cutting tool usually known as knives? That $10 piece of crap was just typical of the crap being made in china and imported here to put some kid with a piece of cheap steel in his hand a buck in some greedy persons pocket! That $10 piece of crap failed miserably at it's purpose of being a knife! A piece of cheap steel that has not been tempered or one that is improperly tempered on the soft side will bend without breaking but will take a set like this ten buck garbage did and in order to break it you would generally have to bend it back and forth creating friction and seperating the grain. So it is extremely tough but is useless at it's intended purpose of being a knife as it absolutely will not hold a cutting edge and cannot be used to pry with since it will bend rather than seperate whatever you are prying .and some times they are very difficult to even get sharp enough to shave because they are too soft... In other words it is just nothing more than metal shaped like a knife with a knife handle installed. Some of you guys especially the younger ones perhaps should seek advice from an metallurgist on the subject before jumping to conclusions and making the mistake that a piece of metal is a knife...
Click to expand...

Exactly how do you know the knife failed at being a knife? How do you know it was poorly tempered? Like the Ranger, it was never significantly tested as such. It seems like it may serve the prying urge at least as well as the Ranger, considering it survived the lateral stress better with no significant permanent deformation. Clearly, the CTD knife is of humble origin. Even if made from premium steel by a fine knifemaker, it's geometry would likely never make it a fine cutter. But making stuff up about it to make the Ranger look good in comparison is pretty silly.

Well then how about we just label it what it is... A product of slave labor in the form of an knife like object.
Click to expand...

OK. Do you know that slaves built that knife? Or are you just ratcheting up the drama for effect?

It's amusing to denigrate a knife as being a "knife like object", or being a "just nothing more than metal shaped like a knife with a knife handle installed". You make it sound like knives are some secret high technology that only advanced countries like the US can manufacture. To a large degree, knives really are just knife-shaped pieces of metal.
 
Last edited:
I think this forum is the best resource for any lay person, like me, looking for a incredible huge boost in his knife knowledge. Here I've been learning a lot about steel, sharpening, convex grinding, and, of course, knife tests and impressions. And from here I took notice of other places where to look for more information. That's how I came to know Noss', Cliff's, and "the other" forum, among others.
Noss' test are great, IMHO. But as any other tests I've been seeing, like Cliff's and Vasily's, they are prone to put people into confrontation mode, including, sometimes, test devisers.
That's sad, because information is neutral, although conclusions might not be so.
Having said that, I think the Chinese knife question could be better handled by taking the "chinese" out of the equation. For example, talking about steel. It's 440 stainless. Cheaper than dirt site states:
"440A - 440B - 440C - All three resist rust well, with 440A being the most resistant and 440C the least. If your knife is marked with just 440, it is probably the less expensive 440A. In general the 440A is just good enough for everyday use, 440B is a solid performer and 440C being excellent." I think they extracted that, without quotation, from Joe Talmadge's Steel FAQ.

So that knife is 440A steel, probably.
Cliff says:
"Summary : 440A is a stainless steel generally chosen for cutlery which needs high corrosion resistance. It has a higher corrosion resistance than 12C27M and much higher primary carbide fraction and corrosponding increase in wear resistance and decrease in edge stability."

So, I think its fair to say that the CTD knife, heat treatment magic notwithstanding, is most certainly not comparable, edge retention wise, with Ranger's 5160.

On the other hand, one thing that I would like to see it's Noss sending the remains of his knives to someone well versed in metallurgy and knives, equipped with a materials analysis microscope. Now that would be something!
 
shecky said:
How do you know it was poorly tempered?



OK. Do you know that slaves built that knife? Or are you just ratcheting up the drama for effect?
Click to expand...

I know the knife was poorly tempered because it stayed bent and significantly i might add and as far as slave labor goes well i try to keep up with what's going on in the world as some of you younger folk should and likely will someday. ( i can't say for sure that it is but it is highly suspect and i am not willing to chance supporting it) And no a sharpened piece of metal is by no means a knife untill it's properties are freed with the introduction of ht to the metal allowing it to become a knife. You want to know the difference between a knife and a piece of sharpened metal? Why not ask a knife maker and i am sure he/she will clear it up for you. Knife making is a knowledge and not a simple process especially when we come to the heat treatment which is expensive and complicated process when working with stainless steels. I used to view knives as a simple piece of metal myself untill i studied the processes involved in making and treating them. I didn't know what cryogenic quenching did nor what austenite or martensite was. I didn't know that ht moved the carbon around changing it's properties. And of course i can't really give any advice on the subject since it's been a while since i have read up on the subject (and would have to resort to my bookshelf and start digging) But i am sure there are people here willing to help most of us out in the understanding of the properties of steel. When i want to know something quick that i have forgotten i usually just ask some one on the forums rather than trying to find the correct book on my shelves.
 
highanddry said:
I think this forum is the best resource for any lay person, like me, looking for a incredible huge boost in his knife knowledge. Here I've been learning a lot about steel, sharpening, convex grinding, and, of course, knife tests and impressions. And from here I took notice of other places where to look for more information. That's how I came to know Noss', Cliff's, and "the other" forum, among others.
Noss' test are great, IMHO. But as any other tests I've been seeing, like Cliff's and Vasily's, they are prone to put people into confrontation mode, including, sometimes, test devisers.
That's sad, because information is neutral, although conclusions might not be so.
Having said that, I think the Chinese knife question could be better handled by taking the "chinese" out of the equation. For example, talking about steel. It's 440 stainless. Cheaper than dirt site states:
"440A - 440B - 440C - All three resist rust well, with 440A being the most resistant and 440C the least. If your knife is marked with just 440, it is probably the less expensive 440A. In general the 440A is just good enough for everyday use, 440B is a solid performer and 440C being excellent." I think they extracted that, without quotation, from Joe Talmadge's Steel FAQ.

So that knife is 440A steel, probably.
Cliff says:
"Summary : 440A is a stainless steel generally chosen for cutlery which needs high corrosion resistance. It has a higher corrosion resistance than 12C27M and much higher primary carbide fraction and corrosponding increase in wear resistance and decrease in edge stability."

So, I think its fair to say that the CTD knife, heat treatment magic notwithstanding, is most certainly not comparable, edge retention wise, with Ranger's 5160.

On the other hand, one thing that I would like to see it's Noss sending the remains of his knives to someone well versed in metallurgy and knives, equipped with a materials analysis microscope. Now that would be something!
Click to expand...

It isn't 440 steel. The only 440 steel used in china knives is steel imported from germany by certain manufacturers and keep in mind that it is just steel when imported since it has not recieved treatment to become a knife yet. The steel is probably closer to an 420 equivalent. But wait! i just remembered that frost cutlery imports a lot of german 440a into china and this knife looks a lot like a frost. hmmm the steel should have been plenty harder than it was for 440a even at 56 to 57. It performed like the cheapo crap in the 52 to 54 420 knockoff range however.
 
sdt11670 said:
but, as long as he refuses to acknowledge these things about the properties of steel and differences between toughness and hardness etc. he wont ever be taken seriously by adult knife enthusiast
Click to expand...

Actually, Noss' tests seem to be taken seriously by a good portion of the "adult knife enthusiasts" on these forums. In my opinion, your above assumption is about as assinine as your assumption that Chinese-made knives are manufactured by slaves. You don't have to agree with Noss' tests or videos but to show this type of condescending attitude is uncalled for.

All that said, the Ranger held up reasonably well given its price point.
 
Noss got so much flack for this.... He maned up to Justin though even invited him to sit down to talk it all over.

Way too much talk about the mask and not wanting to show his face. Thanks for the test


Maybe another test???
 
All knives are a tradeoff, just like there is no perfect do it all anything.

Noss mentioned he was expecting more from the Ranger, and from what I've used of my RD-9 I expected a much longer performance as well. But I also know that if I intentionally set out to destroy something, I will accomplish that goal.

Jimro
 
sdt11670 said:
I know the knife was poorly tempered because it stayed bent and significantly i might add and as far as slave labor goes well i try to keep up with what's going on in the world as some of you younger folk should and likely will someday. ( i can't say for sure that it is but it is highly suspect and i am not willing to chance supporting it) And no a sharpened piece of metal is by no means a knife untill it's properties are freed with the introduction of ht to the metal allowing it to become a knife. You want to know the difference between a knife and a piece of sharpened metal? Why not ask a knife maker and i am sure he/she will clear it up for you. Knife making is a knowledge and not a simple process especially when we come to the heat treatment which is expensive and complicated process when working with stainless steels. I used to view knives as a simple piece of metal myself untill i studied the processes involved in making and treating them. I didn't know what cryogenic quenching did nor what austenite or martensite was. I didn't know that ht moved the carbon around changing it's properties. And of course i can't really give any advice on the subject since it's been a while since i have read up on the subject (and would have to resort to my bookshelf and start digging) But i am sure there are people here willing to help most of us out in the understanding of the properties of steel. When i want to know something quick that i have forgotten i usually just ask some one on the forums rather than trying to find the correct book on my shelves.
Click to expand...

All of these "knives" I've been flintknapping aren't really knives? I knew I've been missing something! This whole time I just needed to heat treat them... Eureka!
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top