-
The BladeForums.com 2024 Traditional Knife is ready to order! See this thread for details: https://www.bladeforums.com/threads/bladeforums-2024-traditional-knife.2003187/
Price is$300$250 ea (shipped within CONUS). If you live outside the US, I will contact you after your order for extra shipping charges.
Order here: https://www.bladeforums.com/help/2024-traditional/ - Order as many as you like, we have plenty.
Not a great debut for the new Council Wood-Craft Pack Axe
- Thread starter Twindog
- Start date
- Joined
- Mar 8, 2008
- Messages
- 25,939
Liam Hoffman, I think he means.
- Joined
- Mar 10, 2011
- Messages
- 2,657
- Joined
- Sep 17, 2014
- Messages
- 120
If, after more use, you see that the edge is still folding and cracking you may need to heat treat the axe yourself.
You can use your charcoal grill. (1)Bring the embers to a glowing red lite color. Put the axe in the embers and and wait for the proper lite red color. Now, submerge the head in water and move the head up and down until you have cooled the head rapidly for it to harden. Here is how I do it. I have a set of blacksmith thongs that I insert with and remove the axe head from the lite red glowing charcoal. You have a bucket/container of water and have it filled to where you can dip/quench the head 1-1 1/4 inches. Dip the blade to 1-1/4 to 1 1/2 inches and count to one thousand one, one thousand two and remove out of the water for one thousand one and then repeat this process for 7 times and then just leave the metal submerged until the entire edge has cooled. This method helps prevent the metal from cracking from the water quench. The metal is now too hard and brittle and will break and burst if we do not temper it. OOOHHHH, BY THE WAY! By using a magnet when the ax head is the proper color,you can be absolutely certain the metal is hot enough when the magnet does not stick to the ax head before we harden the metal. Now, set the head in a safe place with the cutting edge down and let the ax cool down so that you can touch it.
(2) Step 2--TEMPERING--soften the metal. Tempering begins at 350 degrees Farienheit. My method is to heat my range oven to 385 degrees farienheit and put the ax head in for one hour. I use a oven thermometer to get good results. Remove the ax head and then quench the head by submerging the ax head in water for 7 seconds. This stops the tempering and all is now done except cleaning up the ax by by grinding the ax head and treating for rust. This should result in RC hardness of 54-57( depending on the carbon content of the metal). With Council Tool 5160 you should have around -57+ RC. Set the ax aside with the cutting edge turned down until well cooled. I prefer a 2" heated treated edge.
Oil quenching is popular BUT results in sometimes too soft RC for my purposes. BUT RC 54-55 is pretty darned good.
This is something I have performed on many axes over the past 50 years. I have a old ovel shaped crock pot that I do my tempering in.
This allows me to insert a steel rebar section bent at a 90 degree angle through the ax eye and dip to the proper depth and just leave the ax heads hardned cutting and tempered edge hanging in the water untill the axe has throughly cooled.
After I read through all of the questions and answeres on BladeForums, I am always happy with the all of new gratifying knowledge that
I gain from being a member here.
ripshin
You can use your charcoal grill. (1)Bring the embers to a glowing red lite color. Put the axe in the embers and and wait for the proper lite red color. Now, submerge the head in water and move the head up and down until you have cooled the head rapidly for it to harden. Here is how I do it. I have a set of blacksmith thongs that I insert with and remove the axe head from the lite red glowing charcoal. You have a bucket/container of water and have it filled to where you can dip/quench the head 1-1 1/4 inches. Dip the blade to 1-1/4 to 1 1/2 inches and count to one thousand one, one thousand two and remove out of the water for one thousand one and then repeat this process for 7 times and then just leave the metal submerged until the entire edge has cooled. This method helps prevent the metal from cracking from the water quench. The metal is now too hard and brittle and will break and burst if we do not temper it. OOOHHHH, BY THE WAY! By using a magnet when the ax head is the proper color,you can be absolutely certain the metal is hot enough when the magnet does not stick to the ax head before we harden the metal. Now, set the head in a safe place with the cutting edge down and let the ax cool down so that you can touch it.
(2) Step 2--TEMPERING--soften the metal. Tempering begins at 350 degrees Farienheit. My method is to heat my range oven to 385 degrees farienheit and put the ax head in for one hour. I use a oven thermometer to get good results. Remove the ax head and then quench the head by submerging the ax head in water for 7 seconds. This stops the tempering and all is now done except cleaning up the ax by by grinding the ax head and treating for rust. This should result in RC hardness of 54-57( depending on the carbon content of the metal). With Council Tool 5160 you should have around -57+ RC. Set the ax aside with the cutting edge turned down until well cooled. I prefer a 2" heated treated edge.
Oil quenching is popular BUT results in sometimes too soft RC for my purposes. BUT RC 54-55 is pretty darned good.
This is something I have performed on many axes over the past 50 years. I have a old ovel shaped crock pot that I do my tempering in.
This allows me to insert a steel rebar section bent at a 90 degree angle through the ax eye and dip to the proper depth and just leave the ax heads hardned cutting and tempered edge hanging in the water untill the axe has throughly cooled.
After I read through all of the questions and answeres on BladeForums, I am always happy with the all of new gratifying knowledge that
I gain from being a member here.
ripshin
Last edited:
- Joined
- Feb 16, 2013
- Messages
- 96
This might make a good sticky.
Thanks
Thanks
My replacement Council pack axe arrived today in beautiful shape. Council included at no cost the full carry option sheath and strap which is an awesome system. Nice people at Council and great customer service.
The head was well hung, with no gaps anywhere between the head and haft.
Pretty good grain in the haft.
The real test was the heat treat. In September, Council switched to a new, automated heat-treat system. This axe has a 25-degree inclusive edge, so the heat treat has to be dead on. Council went back through its records and narrowed my axe down to one of two that could have been incompletely heat treated.
The heat treat on edges this acute have to be spot on. *Council said: the nature of the thinner but much sharper 25 degree flat grind must be quenched immediately when it reaches the proper heating temp and time frame.* Even a second could cause the thin edge of the blade to cool too quickly before quench. Council said my first axe probably didnt get quenched quickly enough.
Council said the photos I sent them showed that the heat treat was faulty. A few months ago, I tested a number of large chopper knives for edge stability. The test that was most revealing was chopping a length of bailing wire over a big block of Doug fir. I thought Id test the new axe to see how it compared to the old one.
The large chip on the old head (the lowest one in the photo) was from the bailing wire chop test. Its pretty big and compares to the lowest scoring steels on my big knives.
I tried the same test with the new axe, and there was almost no damage pretty much in line with the best of my choppers (Bluntcuts reheat treat of a 3V chopper, Nathans light chopper and ZTs 0180 in Vanadis 4E.
You can see a very tiny bit of edge damage on a tough test. The heat treat on the new axe is excellent.
Many thanks to Council. I didnt ask them for a replacement. When I sent them photos of the old damage, at the request of Rooster, they said they could see the heat treat was off and they offered to send me a replacement, and they added the optional carry system. Pretty nice when customer service is much better than the customer asked for.
The head was well hung, with no gaps anywhere between the head and haft.
Pretty good grain in the haft.
The real test was the heat treat. In September, Council switched to a new, automated heat-treat system. This axe has a 25-degree inclusive edge, so the heat treat has to be dead on. Council went back through its records and narrowed my axe down to one of two that could have been incompletely heat treated.
The heat treat on edges this acute have to be spot on. *Council said: the nature of the thinner but much sharper 25 degree flat grind must be quenched immediately when it reaches the proper heating temp and time frame.* Even a second could cause the thin edge of the blade to cool too quickly before quench. Council said my first axe probably didnt get quenched quickly enough.
Council said the photos I sent them showed that the heat treat was faulty. A few months ago, I tested a number of large chopper knives for edge stability. The test that was most revealing was chopping a length of bailing wire over a big block of Doug fir. I thought Id test the new axe to see how it compared to the old one.
The large chip on the old head (the lowest one in the photo) was from the bailing wire chop test. Its pretty big and compares to the lowest scoring steels on my big knives.
I tried the same test with the new axe, and there was almost no damage pretty much in line with the best of my choppers (Bluntcuts reheat treat of a 3V chopper, Nathans light chopper and ZTs 0180 in Vanadis 4E.
You can see a very tiny bit of edge damage on a tough test. The heat treat on the new axe is excellent.
Many thanks to Council. I didnt ask them for a replacement. When I sent them photos of the old damage, at the request of Rooster, they said they could see the heat treat was off and they offered to send me a replacement, and they added the optional carry system. Pretty nice when customer service is much better than the customer asked for.
Square_peg
Gold Member
- Joined
- Feb 1, 2012
- Messages
- 13,813
That's impressive. Good on Council.
Good to hear, and see, that there's a nice ending to this saga. If Council says they could actually back track your initial purchase to one of two improperly treated heads that suggests to me there is a production code or serial number stamped on these. Is that possible?
There's not serial number. Council apparently watches the heat treat process very closely because of the acute edge of the 5160 steel. They test a percentage -- I think one in 10 -- as a quality control. They were sure that the new automated process was not a problem. And the old system was not a problem. But the transition left a gap for human error, and they went through their records to see where a slip could have taken place. Their records narrowed the possibility down to two axes. At least, this is how I understand it.
Hickory n steel
Gold Member
- Joined
- Feb 11, 2016
- Messages
- 20,158
That's awesome, I've heard nothing but good things council tools as a company and am glad to hear that they treated you right.
I've had issues with items before, and it's good to know you're dealing with a first rate company who cares about and stands by their products. It's great when a product is flawless, but even better when you can get first hand experience of how much they care about the customer.
We need more companies like this back here in America again.
I've had issues with items before, and it's good to know you're dealing with a first rate company who cares about and stands by their products. It's great when a product is flawless, but even better when you can get first hand experience of how much they care about the customer.
We need more companies like this back here in America again.
I hate to be devil's advocate here but its pretty clear that they were aiming more to save their reputation and the reputation of their newly released axe, glad for Twindog that they did, but would they have done the same in a case where it would have been an unknown person that did not visit this place and that Rooster does not know? I Wonder...
At any rate, good to know they went behond and sent more than what you asked for
At any rate, good to know they went behond and sent more than what you asked for
Hickory n steel
Gold Member
- Joined
- Feb 11, 2016
- Messages
- 20,158
I hate to be devil's advocate here but its pretty clear that they were aiming more to save their reputation and the reputation of their newly released axe, glad for Twindog that they did, but would they have done the same in a case where it would have been an unknown person that did not visit this place and that Rooster does not know? I Wonder...
At any rate, good to know they went behond and sent more than what you asked for
They're a proud American family owned company that has been around for over 100yrs . If they were just trying to save their reputation , it was their reputation as a first rate company which they strive to keep up. Not because they want to look good, but because they truly care. ( this is the impression I have of them anyways )
Not a lot of companies would just go ahead and produce an axe designed by some random guy.
They realized that he's known in a relatively small community ( the average car camper or even hipster isn't gonna know who he is ) but saw something in his design and wanted to produce it.
For example, less straud got wetterlings to produce an axe design because he's a big TV personality, but they probably wouldn't have given a guy like rooster the time of day as his following is tiny in comparison.
- Joined
- Aug 21, 2013
- Messages
- 3,898
I hate to be devil's advocate here but its pretty clear that they were aiming more to save their reputation and the reputation of their newly released axe, glad for Twindog that they did, but would they have done the same in a case where it would have been an unknown person that did not visit this place and that Rooster does not know? I Wonder...
At any rate, good to know they went behond and sent more than what you asked for
How many times have people* here, or in real life, heard someone say:
Oh man, I wish I knew someone who would put a good word in for me for service X or products Y.
I feel like businesses arent like they should or used to be
Manufacturers dont take pride in their products after the sale
*I count myself as one of those people.
It's probably safe to operate under the assumption that all of this occurred in good faith.
ohen cepel
Gold Member
- Joined
- Sep 19, 2002
- Messages
- 3,495
Great to hear that they made it right! I like their stuff and always watch threads like this to see how a company reacts when a mistake is made. That ax isn't my thing but much of what they make is.
Square_peg
Gold Member
- Joined
- Feb 1, 2012
- Messages
- 13,813
How many times have people* here, or in real life, heard someone say:
Oh man, I wish I knew someone who would put a good word in for me for service X or products Y.
I feel like businesses arent like they should or used to be
Manufacturers dont take pride in their products after the sale
*I count myself as one of those people.
It's probably safe to operate under the assumption that all of this occurred in good faith.
I see two big kudos for Council in this. First they listened to a user about what type of product to offer. Then they made it well and stood behind it. We've all wished that modern companies would still do this.
I give Council full marks for this.
It's still not my type of tool. I'd be more interested in owning their badaxe boys axe if I didn't already own a pile of vintage boys axes.
- Joined
- Feb 27, 2013
- Messages
- 344
I love Council Tool axes, but I see there is something weird specifically with the axe we are talking here. I see the sheath and bit faults are too common and they continue selling these axes. Two or three days ago a friend received this axe with the same problems seen here, I suggested him to contact the maker as I see they change faulty axes without any problem.
I don't know the percentage of faulty axes but here in Europe it seems we are talking about high one. The point I want to talk about is that they continue selling these axes allthough they know they are having problems with them. I know recalling the axes you have produced from the vendors who still haven't sell them is expensive but not doing it places you in a worse situation in a long term.
I don't think the heat treatment would be the problem, I own several Velvies and all their heat treatment is perfect. Making a so bad heat treatment in a 25º bit is also very improbable, the geometry is too wide (it's in the splitting zone for our local standards) to ruin it in the scale we are seeing here. I think the problem is in the grinding after the heat treatment, during this process they will heat the bit too much destroying the heat treatment.
I don't know the percentage of faulty axes but here in Europe it seems we are talking about high one. The point I want to talk about is that they continue selling these axes allthough they know they are having problems with them. I know recalling the axes you have produced from the vendors who still haven't sell them is expensive but not doing it places you in a worse situation in a long term.
I don't think the heat treatment would be the problem, I own several Velvies and all their heat treatment is perfect. Making a so bad heat treatment in a 25º bit is also very improbable, the geometry is too wide (it's in the splitting zone for our local standards) to ruin it in the scale we are seeing here. I think the problem is in the grinding after the heat treatment, during this process they will heat the bit too much destroying the heat treatment.
I agree, and I suggested the same thing when OP mentioned colors running on the edge! The edge is not that acute, especially for a smaller axe...although I think the straight grind may be less resilient than an ordinary axe convex. That however probably appeals to the applications and user targets (carving and bushcrafting).
I think they did the right thing, for whatever reason (PR not excluded) in this case, and I like CT, especially because they are US makers, but I don't believe we ought to be too easy on them. If they want to play against the other boutique axes, they have to match the quality and consistency.