Not being able to carry a folder over 3 inches really stinks

[Div4gold]

Everything in SF has to be under 3"s doesn't it? But seriously yeah that sucks.[/QUOTE]


That's the reason for the 3 inch limit in SF

 

[legion681]

How so? There is no blade length limit in the law in Mass. each city may set its own blade length limit as they see fit.






The 1.5 inch blade limit is for automatics. A normal locking folding knife doesn't have a blade length limit that I could find as long as it doesn't meet the criteria of automatic, gravity, ballistic, butterfly or other description prohibited by MGL. The 2.5 inch limit is within the city limits of Boston.




My father was a police officer for 33 years in a high crime Boston suburb and usually said a folder with a blade of under 4 inches would not be a problem (unless you were a criminal, or it was going to be used as an additional charge during a felony arrest.) He gave me my first spyderco fully serrated endura but mentioned that a police or military was against the law. It will most likely be at the discretion of the officer and if you aren't a criminal chances are you will be fine.

YMMV

Yep I know about the Boston's limit of 2.5 in, I also mentioned it in what I wrote by the way.

As far as the no length limitation in MA and 1.5 in being only for automatics, well I had to get my wife involved as English is not my native language (she was born and raised in MA. She is also a trained law journalist...) and after reading MGL 269-10 she concurs with what you say, with no doubts about it.
So it's my mistake, due to my interpretation of legalese from a foreigner standpoint (English is only my 3rd language). In all honesty it would be a service to the average Joe if they wrote law with a couple of bullet points here and there rather than a wall of text...
Anyway at the end, it's good news.

What is NOT good news is that it's still just up to a LEO opinion/mood/whim to decide whether what I am carrying is legal or not.
You see, when you say "chances are you will be fine"...I don't want "chances", I want certainty.

 

[HikingMano]

Technically there is a state limit regarding what you can carry on any kind of state property, which can include city property depending on circumstance but mostly schools and campuses is where the main concern is.

^^^This might be right (found HERE):

171b. (a) Any person who brings or possesses within any state or
local public building or at any meeting required to be open to the
public pursuant to Chapter 9 (commencing with Section 54950) of Part
1 of Division 2 of Title 5 of, or Article 9 (commencing with Section
11120) of Chapter 1 of Part 1 of Division 3 of Title 2 of, the
Government Code, any of the following is guilty of a public offense
punishable by imprisonment in a county jail for not more than one
year, or in the state prison:
(1) Any firearm.
(2) Any deadly weapon described in Section 17235 or in any
provision listed in Section 16590.
(3) Any knife with a blade length in excess of four inches, the
blade of which is fixed or is capable of being fixed in an unguarded
position by the use of one or two hands.

Though I'm not sure what to make of the part in bold. I'm not sure if it's just referring to fixed blades or if it applies to locking folders.

The above also extends to the capitol and other state government property, and the "strerile areas" of an airport (pass security screening). Obviously, FAA supersedes in regards to aviation.

I'm also not 100% confident in my interpretation of what the "unguarded position" means. It seems to me it means a locking folder. Better safe than sorry in those cases. Places like courthouses don't allow you to carry knife at all anyway.

171c. (a) (1) Any person who brings a loaded firearm into, or
possesses a loaded firearm within, the State Capitol, any legislative
office, any office of the Governor or other constitutional officer,
or any hearing room in which any committee of the Senate or Assembly
is conducting a hearing, or upon the grounds of the State Capitol,
which is bounded by 10th, L, 15th, and N Streets in the City of
Sacramento, shall be punished by imprisonment in a county jail for a
period of not more than one year, a fine of not more than one
thousand dollars ($1,000), or both such imprisonment and fine, or by
imprisonment in the state prison.
(2) Any person who brings or possesses, within the State Capitol,
any legislative office, any hearing room in which any committee of
the Senate or Assembly is conducting a hearing, the Legislative
Office Building at 1020 N Street in the City of Sacramento, or upon
the grounds of the State Capitol, which is bounded by 10th, L, 15th,
and N Streets in the City of Sacramento, any of the following, is
guilty of a misdemeanor punishable by imprisonment in a county jail
for a period not to exceed one year, or by a fine not exceeding one
thousand dollars ($1,000), or by both that fine and imprisonment, if
the area is posted with a statement providing reasonable notice that
prosecution may result from possession of any of these items:
(A) Any firearm.
(B) Any deadly weapon described in Section 653k or 12020.
(C) Any knife with a blade length in excess of four inches, the
blade of which is fixed or is capable of being fixed in an unguarded
position by the use of one or two hands.

171.5. (a) For purposes of this section:
(1) "Airport" means an airport, with a secured area, that
regularly serves an air carrier holding a certificate issued by the
United States Secretary of Transportation.
(2) "Passenger vessel terminal" means only that portion of a
harbor or port facility, as described in Section 105.105(a)(2) of
Title 33 of the Code of Federal Regulations, with a secured area that
regularly serves scheduled commuter or passenger operations.
(3) "Sterile area" means a portion of an airport defined in the
airport security program to which access generally is controlled
through the screening of persons and property, as specified in
Section 1540.5 of Title 49 of the Code of Federal Regulations, or a
portion of any passenger vessel terminal to which, pursuant to the
requirements set forth in Sections 105.255(a)(1), 105.255(c)(1), and
105.260(a) of Title 33 of the Code of Federal Regulations, access is
generally controlled in a manner consistent with the passenger vessel
terminal's security plan and the MARSEC level in effect at the time.
(b) It is unlawful for any person to knowingly possess, within any
sterile area of an airport or a passenger vessel terminal, any of
the items listed in subdivision (c).
(c) The following items are unlawful to possess as provided in
subdivision (b):
(1) Any firearm.
(2) Any knife with a blade length in excess of four inches, the
blade of which is fixed, or is capable of being fixed, in an
unguarded position by the use of one or two hands.
(3) Any box cutter or straight razor.
(4) Any metal military practice hand grenade.
(5) Any metal replica hand grenade.
(6) Any plastic replica hand grenade.
(7) Any imitation firearm as defined in Section 417.4.
(8) Any frame, receiver, barrel, or magazine of a firearm.
(9) Any unauthorized tear gas weapon.
(10) Any taser or stun gun, as defined in Section 244.5.
(11) Any instrument that expels a metallic projectile, such as a
BB or pellet, through the force of air pressure, CO2 pressure, or
spring action, or any spot marker gun or paint gun.
(12) Any ammunition as defined in Section 16150.
(d) Subdivision (b) shall not apply to, or affect, any of the
following:
(1) A duly appointed peace officer, as defined in Chapter 4.5
(commencing with Section 830) of Title 3 of Part 2, a retired peace
officer with authorization to carry concealed weapons as described in
Article 2 (commencing with Section 25450) of Chapter 2 of Division 5
of Title 4 of Part 6, a full-time paid peace officer of another
state or the federal government who is carrying out official duties
while in California, or any person summoned by any of these officers
to assist in making arrests or preserving the peace while he or she
is actually engaged in assisting the officer.
(2) A person who has authorization to possess a weapon specified
in subdivision (c), granted in writing by an airport security
coordinator who is designated as specified in Section 1542.3 of Title
49 of the Code of Federal Regulations, and who is responsible for
the security of the airport.
(3) A person, including an employee of a licensed contract guard
service, who has authorization to possess a weapon specified in
subdivision (c) granted in writing by a person discharging the duties
of Facility Security Officer or Company Security Officer pursuant to
an approved United States Coast Guard facility security plan, and
who is responsible for the security of the passenger vessel terminal.
(e) A violation of this section is punishable by imprisonment in a
county jail for a period not exceeding six months, or by a fine not
exceeding one thousand dollars ($1,000), or by both that fine and
imprisonment.
(f) The provisions of this section are cumulative, and shall not
be construed as restricting the application of any other law.
However, an act or omission that is punishable in different ways by
this and any other provision of law shall not be punished under more
than one provision.
(g) Nothing in this section is intended to affect existing state
or federal law regarding the transportation of firearms on airplanes
in checked luggage, or the possession of the items listed in
subdivision (c) in areas that are not "sterile areas."

You can't link directly to the search results, but you can enter your queries here (check the Penal Code box).


As far as I know, the relevant sections of the CA PC are:
171b,171c,171.5
626.10
653.k
12001.1
12020
12028


You can look up municipal codes using the link in my previous post. County codes are listed too.



Edited to Add:

Freq, it's evident from your OP that you are not familiar with your local laws.

I'm sitting here debating on my favorite knives and you know what?

Not being able to carry a folder over 3 inches really really sucks.

There are so many knives I would love to EDC every day, like the Umnumzaan, etc.

Unfortunately, since 3 inches is the limit here, I am reduced to smaller, more petite knives. This really is unfortunate, as I think the sweet spot for awesome folders is around 3.5 inches in blade length.

Anyone else feel similarly?

-Freq

This thread has gone off topic. I am familiar with
my local laws.

My point was to discuss how it sucks that most of the best folders, are over 3 inches in length.


But while we are at it: This whole situation totally sucks. Basically, I have no official source to get a comprehensive law from. Instead, I have to interpret it myself, and rely on forums and shop owners to tell me what is/isn't legal?

Concealed weapons charge ain't no joke, especially if you don't have a sparkling clean record. I find this incredibly frustrating. FYI our gov't sucks ass.

-Freq

We have provided you with sources for the actual text of both state law and the municipal codes for your city. And yes, it is your responsibility to understand them, or seek help in understanding them, if you want to carry a knife legally. If you want to carry within the limits of the law, you have to be willing to put in the work (which is minimal, at that). Anyway, to simplify what has already been said: you should have no problem :thumbup:. Carry and use your knife responsibly, and enjoy

With the kinds of things I use my knives for, I don't find CA state law, or the municipal codes where I work, live, and play, to be overly restrictive. Sure, I would love to carry a fixed blade legally in a pocket or on my belt where my jacket or shirt happens conceal it from view. But all in all, I don't think CA is that bad, especially considering the kinds of knives I enjoy using and the typical tasks in which I employ them.

 

[freq18hz]

Hah, I'm more confused now than I was before...

 

[Tostig]

Hah, I'm more confused now than I was before...

Why worry about it ? seriously.

I'm a stand up guy , work hard for my money , pay my damn taxes, vote , registered for service when I had to , open doors for strangers and call my elders Sir and Ma'am.

That said , I dont give two rips about anybodys knife laws. I will carry whatever I please and I will never be anyone's victim.



Tostig

 

[HikingMano]

Freq, one more thing: Jim March's site on CA knife laws is a pretty good resource, if I remember correctly. I remember he did a pretty good job taking one through the laws and providing advice on interacting with LEOs. Chris linked it in his post:

[...]You're right - as far as I know there isn't anything specifically written in sate law that gives a blade length limit. Even says it here, for what it's worth:

http://www.ninehundred.com/~equalccw/knifelaw.html
"There's no length limit. Seriously ."
[...]
~Chris

I just came across this site too, but haven't gone through it yet. It looks to lay out the legal stuff pretty nicely upon skimming. Might be worth a read :thumbup:

http://zknives.com/knives/articles/law/caknifelaws.shtml

 

[freq18hz]

if we are talking laws, I think my feeling is that the law feels too uncertain. Totally lame that there isnt anything definitive about what is legal in my city.

-Freq

 

[Robert.B]

I carry in a country ATM where all carry is illegal, I just be conservative (not carry a 12" bowie down my back) and don't look like trouble...I do the same in the US.

 

[Kaizen1]

if we are talking laws, I think my feeling is that the law feels too uncertain. Totally lame that there isnt anything definitive about what is legal in my city.

-Freq

Actually, the wording is fairly clear for most knives.

 

[Charlie Mike]

Crap like this makes me sick. We need courts that recognize the validity of common law, that no crime has occurred if no victim (loss or injury/damage of property) can be produced. Common law is valid but our masters have decieved us into believing statute law applies to natural flesh/blood humans. We make the mistake of foolishly representing ourselves (flesh/blood) in court when the statutes we are being charged with violating only apply to corporations. That's right... because the term "person" can & does legally describe a corporation.

 

[BluesStringer]

Thank you Alabama.

10 bucks for a permit to conceal my pistol, and I've never heard of anyone getting any flack for whatever knife they choose to carry.

You couldn't pay me to live in California!

Grew up in Redondo Beach. They sure as heck didn't have to pay me to leave 20 years ago either!

As far as Bama knife laws, there's only one that I've ever found, and it pertains specifically to Bowie knives. I can dig it out if anyone needs it, but IIRC, a Bowie is the only knife that cannot be concealed, and there is no permit that overrides that restriction.

Last I checked there was no blade length limit anywhere in the Bay Area except Mountain View.

That said, if it bothers you, move. I did, and now I carry whatever I want.

On the same theme, I have this to say about that:

I agree, move. It's what I did and I've never regretted it for a nanosecond. The more people that do it, the closer to starvation the beast gets.....but only the beast in that specific jurisdiction gets starved.

On the other hand, every state has its crosses to bear as far as denying its citizens their rights. There is simply no place to move to get away from that fact. The federal government reaps the benefits of the states "softening up" The People to make them more compliant to liberty-killing laws. In that regard, the fight for liberty needs to inspire camaraderie nationwide, regardless of jurisdiction or specific personal "favorite" issues.

I am both a gun and knife enthusiast, and here in Alabama neither of those facts are likely to cause me any 4th Amendment conflicts with law enforcement. In other words, no LEOs are likely to come looking for my guns or proper paperwork, registrations etc. But if they are likely to do that in CA or MA or any other jurisdiction in the US, it is incumbent upon me as a free citizen to fight as though it is a threat to my liberties, because eventually, if allowed to encroach upon society incrementally, it will be.

So even though I left So Cal 20 years ago, I still support my Brothers and Sisters in arms there in every way I can, whether through financial support, political support or just plain ol' moral support. But before any outside support does a lick of good for your liberties being restored, you have to become active in your own jurisdiction(s) to an extent exponentially greater than any outsider even can. If you don't like being limited by law the length of blade you can carry, I implore you to network with organizations already in the fight (American Knife & Tool Institute, Knife Rights.org just to name a couple) and join a cause that will benefit all freedom-loving Americans everywhere, rather than just complain about the sad state of affairs over a single issue in an isolated jurisdiction that applies only to a small minority in which you are included as aggrieved.

You can't take California or Massachusetts or San Fran or Boston back by yourselves. But as a nation of active freedom-loving, Constitution-supporting singular People, we can restore everything we've lost over the last 2+ centuries all across this land.

Or we can complain on internet forums.......

Blues

 

[Tsujigiri]

Wow, there are a lot of misconceptions about CA knife laws... for the record:
1. There is no state blade length limit; just local laws about blade length in some areas.
2. Assisted openers are legal and a special provision for them was added into the law a few years ago.
3. Just owning or carrying a knife isn't a felony. Even if it's a balisong or auto (although Cold Steel will tell you otherwise in an effort to sell their neutered balisong look-alikes ).

 

[Charlie Mike]

Never caught a felony for carrying any kind of knife. I have lost approx $3k worth of MT OTFs and BM4x series balisongs to da man but all I got was probation (or violation of) and a wee month of jail time at the worst. I have at least 6 convictions for violation of PC653k. Somewhere along the line, I re-discovered waved knives and haven't looked back.

 

[Mal2]

The real shame of it is that the average law abiding citizen even has to consider it.

Most of the laws give folks not involved in any illegal activities an out; but we, and often LEO's, choose to take them at face value rather than considering the, "when used as a weapon", "with the intent to use the same unlawfully against another", type qualifiers. We also read the normal knife into the "switchblade, dirk, ballistic, etc" clauses thinking they apply when they obviously don't. Finally as in California there is often another qualifier for where they can (I should say cannot) be carried. In CA, for example, 4" is commonly thought of as the limit when it is not. 4" is just mentioned in relation to public buildings and meetings.

Local knee jerk statutes passed by people with no real knowledge of knives or guns for that matter are, IMHO, just plainly unconstitutional.

 

[Robert.B]

The real shame of it is that the average law abiding citizen even has to consider it.

Most of the laws give folks not involved in any illegal activities an out; but we, and often LEO's, choose to take them at face value rather than considering the, "when used as a weapon", "with the intent to use the same unlawfully against another", type qualifiers. We also read the normal knife into the "switchblade, dirk, ballistic, etc" clauses thinking they apply when they obviously don't. Finally as in California there is often another qualifier for where they can (I should say cannot) be carried. In CA, for example, 4" is commonly thought of as the limit when it is not. 4" is just mentioned in relation to public buildings and meetings.

Local knee jerk statutes passed by people with no real knowledge of knives or guns for that matter are, IMHO, just plainly unconstitutional.

CA isn't known for being constitutional...look what people have to do with cell phones now to stop violation of the 4th, as said though, carry what you want but be conservative about it. If you go out of your way to look like a thug with a knife hanging out of your boot they are going to victimize you.

 

[powernoodle]

This thread has gone off topic. I am familiar with
my local laws.

My point was to discuss how it sucks that most of the best folders, are over 3 inches in length.

Sucks, true dat. But the other side of the coinage is that there are some sweet blades under 3". That might make a nice list, either here or elsewhere. But I'm thinking something like the Spyderco Dragonfly G10, for example. 2.25", VG-10, wire clip, G10, highly functional for EDC. One cannot ignore the fun/aesthetics/pleasure that a particular knife provides as well.

 

[Liquidm1980]

i wouldnt want to carry something much bigger. i am in fl have a ccw and carry a delica. i have other larger knives i have bought over the years but keep returning to the delica.

 

[Drudge]

Here in CT the max is 4in. however CT tends to follow the footsteps of Mass. so who knows how long we have before we go 3in. and under.

 

[OhShoot]

I hear ya. Today at the post office (in a town south of Boston), I pulled out my Fallkniven Tre Kronor (2.7 in blade) as I had to open a box which was also wrapped in shipping paper, and I felt like I was pulling out an AK47. ...

How so? There is no blade length limit in the law in Mass.

Well, actually, the knife was a violation of federal law. Anything 2.5" or more is illegal in federal facility.

- OS

 

[Charlie Mike]

Well, actually, the knife was a violation of federal law. Anything 2.5" or more is illegal in federal facility.

- OS

I'm blessed with a pharmacy 700 meters from my house that happens to do domestic only USPS services. Not USPS employees either. They don't bat an eye anymore when I get to the counter.