Not sharpening a new and VERY Queen #9 Stockman

While I do not mind working the edges when I get a new knife, I feel that manufacturers like Queen are doing themselves a disservice. If a novice buys a Queen, they likely expect a sharp knife, not a dull brick (same goes for a GEC or any other knife). Most people likely do not own sharpening equipment, let alone diamond hones. Most people do not have the patience to work an edge. So, the customer now has a knife that looks nice which they cannot use. Instead, they pick up a Chinese import (made from melted down tin cans) which is cheap and sharp.

The long run is Queen just lost a customer. I do not believe that the American knife industry can survive on the knife collectors alone (especially the traditional slipjoint makers). There are not enough of us to support them. For example, GEC can make a short run of 25 knives in 2007, and in 2010 some can still be readily had at internet retailers. That does not bode well for long term sales strength.

I personally believe this is an area Queen and GEC should address. Yes, it may cost them some more, but I do not believe the cost will be much, especially when you factor in the sales they are likely losing because the uneducated public cannot use their knives.
 
Peruna1998 said:
While I do not mind working the edges when I get a new knife, I feel that manufacturers like Queen are doing themselves a disservice. If a novice buys a Queen, they likely expect a sharp knife, not a dull brick (same goes for a GEC or any other knife). Most people likely do not own sharpening equipment, let alone diamond hones. Most people do not have the patience to work an edge. So, the customer now has a knife that looks nice which they cannot use. Instead, they pick up a Chinese import (made from melted down tin cans) which is cheap and sharp.

The long run is Queen just lost a customer. I do not believe that the American knife industry can survive on the knife collectors alone (especially the traditional slipjoint makers). There are not enough of us to support them. For example, GEC can make a short run of 25 knives in 2007, and in 2010 some can still be readily had at internet retailers. That does not bode well for long term sales strength.

I personally believe this is an area Queen and GEC should address. Yes, it may cost them some more, but I do not believe the cost will be much, especially when you factor in the sales they are likely losing because the uneducated public cannot use their knives.
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You are exactly right. I have recently been able to handle quite a few examples of Rough Rider knives to check them out. I was very impressed by the quality that they are producing at such a low price point, and every one of them was razor sharp. Typically, most people in the past have viewed the knives coming out of China as cheap junk, including myself. From what I have seen, this is changing and they are rapidly catching up in terms of fit & finish and over all quality, while still maintaining a price that is a fraction of most American made knives. Its not just Rough Rider either. Other companies like Spyderco, have in recent years began producing knives made both in Taiwan and China (Byrd line of knives). I think that says a lot if these Chinese knife factory's products are up to the quality standards of Spyderco, which is known to produce very high quality products.

I don't want to get into an argument about free trade, comparible labor costs, and all of that. Reality is that things are changing and if American companies don't "step up their game" they are going to get left in the dust. American made knives have been able to sell at higher prices on the selling points of premium quality, fit and finish, blade steel, and the fact that they were simply American made. If they want to continue to do so, they need to at least take the time to put a good edge on a knife before it leaves the factory. I am sure quite a bit of their production goes to collectors and other knife nuts that are willing to put up with a dull blade, but we are not the only ones that buy them. The "average" buyer that makes up the other part of the market will not put up with buying a butter knife out of the box and will take their business elsewhere.
 
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Exactly my point, we cannot forget that the knife manufacturers do not exist to satiate our desires. They exist to make, ostensibly, a profit. I would wager that the vast majority of the knife buying public has never heard of this forum, diamond hones, or microbevels. Given that an iPod works out of the box most people would assume that a pocket knife (a tool that has been around for quite a bit longer) would work out of the box. But, that is not the case with Queens, GECs, and Northwoods.

The counter argument, of course, is most neophyte buyers do not know of these brands. Fair enough. But, prior to January, I did not own a single traditional slipjoint. My first two purchases were a Northwoods and a Queen. But for this site and my next purchase (a diamond hone), I might have given up on traditional knives altogether. As it is I have gone the other direction, giving up on modern/tactical knives because I was patient and stayed with it. Since then....well, I don't want to think about what I've spent. But, how many people are really going to invest the time and patience. In this day and age, I wager very few.

I think Queen, GEC, and Northwoods really should rethink their position on this matter.
 
dan oliver said:
I bought four GEC's last year. They are as dull as butter knives. They should be ashamed to sell products like that to the public.
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Well, I can't resist speaking my mind here. Again, to others points, you can probably pick up a China made knife for 1/4 the cost of those GECs and they will be usably sharp.

Again, I don't think a new knife has to have a superlative edge to be acceptable out of the box, but it does need to have a usable edge on it. I have to reiterate that I think a knife that comes out of the package without a usable edge is unacceptable and unfinished. Come on GEC, Queen put an edge on them before you ship them. After all, sharpening a knife is the least difficult thing there is to building a knife otherwise we would all be building our own.

Ed
 
For those that say "buy a diamond hone and learn to use it" I would like to reiterate that it is not just the edge bevel on many of these knives that is off, they are much too thick behind the edge.

One of my Queen's is extremely thick behind the edge bevel ~ even after fixing the edge it doesn't slice/cut anything like most of my older slippies that are ground very thin.
 
stevomiller said:
For those that say "buy a diamond hone and learn to use it" I would like to reiterate that it is not just the edge bevel on many of these knives that is off, they are much too thick behind the edge.

One of my Queen's is extremely thick behind the edge bevel ~ even after fixing the edge it doesn't slice/cut anything like most of my older slippies that are ground very thin.
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I suspect that's why there's such a disparity in how much time some folks say it takes to reprofile. In my case, I've reprofiled two Queen Country Cousin knives that were also extremely thick behind the edge bevel. Had to remove a LOT of metal to get a decent bevel on 'em. Took a good, long while to get it done. I'd bet some other folks might've been luckier in getting blades that might've needed work, but weren't necessarily as thick right behind the factory bevel, and therefore didn't take as long to reshape the bevel.

I will admit this. I've figured out that I don't necessarily mind the thickness of the blade near the edge. It does take much longer to reprofile, but once that's done, it yields an edge with a good bevel AND a lot of 'beef' behind it. That's an edge that'll last a while.
 
rramjet said:
There is no way that it takes 10 minutes per blade to sharpen a dull Queen, even with diamond stones. I have several Queens and every single one came not only very dull, but withe obtuse, thick edge bevels that were grossly uneven. I am talking about 60 degrees on one side and maybe 30 degrees on the other. With a Lansky set up and coarse diamond stones it takes several hours to change each side of the blade to 20 degrees. That being said, I still buy Queens because they are quality knives. They are well worth the time invested in sharpening them.
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I just sharpened a new Queen Cattle King
It is older production so there was the obtuse grinds!

I used a DMT Aligner set at 20°.
I worked from Extra Course, course, fine to Extra Fine.

I timed my sharpening
I took me 10 minutes with the Extra Course to grind to the final 20° bevel
And another 5 minutes to go thru the course to E fine
15 minutes per blade

The Cattle King is not a small knife, so I think it is a fair timing
 
When did Queen switch to D2 ?
What steel(s) did they use before D2 ?
Were thick primary grinds and obtuse edges also the case with the pre-D2 steels.
I've got a few very nice vintage Queens inbound. for example Queen City, Rodgers bone Stockman, 1925-45; and "Q" sideways/Stainless, Rodgers bone, 2 blade Fish knife, 1946-48.
pretty neat, eh ?
roland
 
rprocter said:
When did Queen switch to D2 ?
What steel(s) did they use before D2 ?
Were thick primary grinds and obtuse edges also the case with the pre-D2 steels.
I've got a few very nice vintage Queens inbound. for example Queen City, Rodgers bone Stockman, 1925-45; and "Q" sideways/Stainless, Rodgers bone, 2 blade Fish knife, 1946-48.
pretty neat, eh ?
roland
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I can answer some of your questions...

Queen started using D2 in early 2002. At that time they launched several new product lines of slipjoints and hunters including the Carved Stag Bone, Cocobolo, and several types of delrin handles all with D2 blades.

Prior to that, if you go back to the late 1940's, Queen pocket knives had Rogers bone handles and were made with 1095 carbon steel blades. In the late 40's, Queen started introducing knives with "Queen Steel" blades and "Frontier Bone" handles. The Queen Steel was actually 440C; the Frontier Bone was what we know as Winterbottom bone. For a few years these knives were marked "STAINLESS STEEL"; however due to the negative public perceptions at the time about stainless steel Queen dropped the term and used the name "Queen Steel" for their 440C knives.

For a number of years into the 1950's Queen offered both lines, the 1095/Rogers and the 440C/Winterbottom. Gradually the 1095 knives were phased out and the entire line was Winterbottom with 440C, though a few Winterbottom patterns were also made in 1095 for a few years in the 1950's.

Into the 1960's and 1970's, the exclusive use of 440C continued and the handles were switched to delrin. At some point in the late 1970's Queen switched to 440A. The use of 440A continued for a number of years. Then at some point circa 2000, Queen switched their basic stainless steel to 420. 420 is still used on some Queen knives including the annual Schatt & Morgan series, while ATS34 is also used on a few Schatt knives and D2 is the primary blade steel used on the standard production Queen knives.
 
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Thanks Steve; and, i really like your book. It's helped me figure out Case knives more than any of my other Case books.
Hope someone else will chime in to my questions about the pre D2 steels and grinds.
my theory is: problem with thick blades began with D2. maybe there is a time allotment for blade grinds which was never increased to account for the more abraision resistant D2 steel ?
roland
 
buckthorn said:
Knifeaholic-Are you sure the Queen stainless was 440C and not 440A? Thanks.
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I have a factory form letter from Queen circa 1976 that they sent to new dealers - it states that the blade steel was 440C. I have also seen a few Queen Pocket knives with 1970's tang stamps where the main blade etch included "440C STAINLESS"...by that time the stigma of stainless steel had been reversed.

I have also seen some later 70's to early 80's Queen knives with the blade etch including 440A STAINLESS.
 
Thanks Steve. Very thorough answer and one i will save as i'm beginning to collect a few Rodgers bone Queens.
Maybe there's a Queen book coming ?
roland
 
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rramjet said:
There is no way that it takes 10 minutes per blade to sharpen a dull Queen, even with diamond stones. I have several Queens and every single one came not only very dull, but withe obtuse, thick edge bevels that were grossly uneven. I am talking about 60 degrees on one side and maybe 30 degrees on the other. With a Lansky set up and coarse diamond stones it takes several hours to change each side of the blade to 20 degrees. That being said, I still buy Queens because they are quality knives. They are well worth the time invested in sharpening them.
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I understand your skepticism, due to the fact that I once owned a Xcoarse Lansky diamond stone. I later learned that stone is terrible compared to even a coarse DMT stone. The diamonds of the lansky do not cut well, and quickly fall out. In contrast, I reprofiled a cattle king in less than 5 mins with a DMT d8xx. The DMT stones have amazing cutting power, and really do make a difference compared to other diamond stones.
 
samhain73 said:
I understand your skepticism, due to the fact that I once owned a Xcoarse Lansky diamond stone. I later learned that stone is terrible compared to even a coarse DMT stone. The diamonds of the lansky do not cut well, and quickly fall out. In contrast, I reprofiled a cattle king in less than 5 mins with a DMT d8xx. The DMT stones have amazing cutting power, and really do make a difference compared to other diamond stones.
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That's interesting to hear. I've gotten by, so far, with one medium diamond hone (Lansky) to supplement my standard Lansky set. I've pretty much worn it out, along with a couple of the standard hones (not flat anymore). I might look to the DMT products next, when I get around to letting myself spend the $$.

(I've also got a GATCO diamond set, still relatively new. So I'm gettin' by for now.)
 
I sent my newly aquired 3L back to Queen to tighten the blade.They replaced the knife and responded very fast. From talking to them on the phone they seem like a small company. From the tang to the point, the bevel is about 25 degrees on both sides
to 20/40 degrees at the tip. It's like they asre putting the final edge on by hand and not being consistantly straight. Either that or the grinder isn't set up right. If you look carefully you can see some brown burn on the edge and the tip. It definately needs a reprofiling. The only thing that bothers me is the high polish on the D2 tends to "gall" the surface making it look like orange peel. Other than that I love the knife. My trapper has a (glazed?) finish as the working line. I think this is a better finish for D2. Looks like I have some work ahead.
My trappers edges are even and sharp, or sharp enough.
My canoe was previously owned and reprofiled like a pro.




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I still stand by them. I think they have a great product, just some manufacturing issues that may be isolated to specific patterns like the Mountain man. It's like shooting craps. Loose one/tight one, sharp one/dull one but all beautiful to say the least.
 
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I suspect the orange peel/cellulite...look on the polished blades is due to the fact that D2 is almost impossible to get a mirror finish on. On the wooden scaled Queen knives,BEM,Zebra, the steel is left satin/matte and works a lot better in my view.

The do make very desirable knives, a Muskrat I own is basically flawless, it's an exceptional production knife even better than the CASE Swayback(which is excellent). Nevertheless, the complaints about dull edges or poor bevels are serious indeed. People may take hours or 20 mins to fix up their knives but at the end of the day, it's WRONG that they should have to. Queen have the equipment and the staff to sharpen their knives to a decent level before they leave the factory, that should be self-evident. If they ALL came out dull, then maybe OK but since it's around 50:50 in my experience, then this shows they are not bothering enough.

It's probably frustrating for dealers as well, having to deal with customer disappointment or sending knives back.
 
Personally, I don't give a hoot if there's been any sharpening done at the factory, since I'm going to profile the edge to my preference anyway.
 
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