Not smart...

[Peter La]

yes there is. there is a problem with carrying knives in school because only 1% of the kids consider it a tool and the other 99% see it as a weapon and when provoked will use it as such so that they don't lose face among their peers.

Sad but true.

Azianboy and Lost in Shuttle, what grade are you in?

 

[ayz]

i'm a college senior so uhh... 16th grade? =P

 

[Lost In Shuffle]

I also must agree that ratting out the guy that sold you the knife is a real nasty move to make. Its easy enough to just say that it was bought over the internet or in some store or whatever.

But i wasnt the one buying knives. I knew about it and just didnt get involved with them. One of the buyers ratted them out (the on ethat got caught flipping the knife around).

 

[Lost In Shuffle]

Before all these school shootings and what-not i remember that bringing knives to school with blades under 2.5 inches ( i read the student handbook ) was allowed. But i read in the paper, after Columbine happened, that a 3rd grader was arrested (a cop actually came in and had to take him to the station) and he was suspended for 2-3 weeks for bringing in nail clippers. I think that is really ridiculous. As for my freinds who got caught, they deserved that punishment, and I support the school system in their decision. I hang around with one of them nowadays but the other is now sort of a recluse who hangs with a bad crowd...

 

[Benjamin Liu]

yes there is. there is a problem with carrying knives in school because only 1% of the kids consider it a tool and the other 99% see it as a weapon and when provoked will use it as such so that they don't lose face among their peers.

So are you saying that your generation is made up almost entirely of violent psychos and criminals? Even if this is the case, the issue is not a knife ban. Maybe intensive psychotherapy for everyone in the school system including the teachers would be in order.

When I was in school every country boy carried a knife and most the boys who lived in town did as well. Sure, we got in fights but nobody even tried to pull a knife on anyone. There was no problem with knife fights. The problem is not in the knives.

 

[Peter La]

So are you saying that your generation is made up almost entirely of violent psychos and criminals? Even if this is the case, the issue is not a knife ban. Maybe intensive psychotherapy for everyone in the school system including the teachers would be in order.

When I was in school every country boy carried a knife and most the boys who lived in town did as well. Sure, we got in fights but nobody even tried to pull a knife on anyone. There was no problem with knife fights. The problem is not in the knives.

Very well said.

 

[LyonHaert]

Maybe intensive psychotherapy for everyone in the school system including the teachers would be in order.

Even this is not a good solution. In order to fix a problem, the problem must exist. Therein lies the real heart of the matter: that the problem is allowed to take root in the first place.

 

[madcap_magician]

Welcome to BF.

Bringing knives to school, IMHO, not necessarily a bad thing. Showing knives and selling knives and then ratting out your dealer, well, that's just downright stupid. Probably sold crappy knives anyway.

 

[Esav Benyamin]

Even this is not a good solution. In order to fix a problem, the problem must exist. Therein lies the real heart of the matter: that the problem is allowed to take root in the first place.

Exactly. By criminalizing knives, our society teaches itself that knives are weapons. If knives were allowed, and misbehavior with them was criminalized instead, we would be teaching ourselves that responsibility is possible and preferable.

Why did Columbine teach us that knives were weapons? Columbine was a combination of firearms and fantasy. The lessons we should have learned from it are that 1) alienated students need a legitimate outlet for their unhappiness, and 2) armed teachers could have intervened before police can arrive.

Instead, we make a problem exist by telling ourselves it exists, by convincing ourselves it exists, and by raising children to see it as a problem. I went to grade school in upper Manhattan, in New York City, in the 50's. Kids fighting each other, even with fists, even pushing and shoving, was considered disgraceful. No one would want to be known for being unfriendly. Now kids want to be known as gangstas?

"Greed and discourtesy are destroying this country."​

 

[acolonelofcorn]

I also agree that knives are nothing dangerous. I carried a knife every day of school starting in first or second grade, and continuing until College graduation. I never thought anything of it. Ignorance and fear are what is driving this strange PC phenomenon we all are noticing. Alot of kids are bing raised to be dumba$$es, and the media they consume plays a major role.

 

[GarageBoy]

All the guys in my schoolsee it as a weapon too

 

[Benjamin Liu]

All the guys in my schoolsee it as a weapon too

Are they brainwashed socialist pacifist sheeple who are afraid of them or are they branwashed psycho mutant killer sheeple who like to kill people with them? Is this with any knives including SAKs?

 

[Kickaha]

Are they brainwashed socialist pacifist sheeple who are afraid of them or are they branwashed psycho mutant killer sheeple who like to kill people with them? Is this with any knives including SAKs?

Sounds like you are describing the adults at my workplace. Just goes to show you how effective brainwashing can be. Under no physical hardships, but under a continuous barrage of Political Correctness tripe from company attorneys via management, people now seem to believe that having anything made of metal on your person is suspicious, and actually having a knife is a virtual admission of bad intent.

 

[ayz]

So are you saying that your generation is made up almost entirely of violent psychos and criminals? Even if this is the case, the issue is not a knife ban. Maybe intensive psychotherapy for everyone in the school system including the teachers would be in order.

When I was in school every country boy carried a knife and most the boys who lived in town did as well. Sure, we got in fights but nobody even tried to pull a knife on anyone. There was no problem with knife fights. The problem is not in the knives.

if you take a kid hunting and camping all the time and he learns to use a knife that way, when you decided "hey it's time he has his own EDC knife" he will see it as a tool and it will be easy to explain to him that it should never be looked at as a weapon, and the consequences of doing so.

now we have a generation raised watching TV and movies where either superheroes or ninjas are throwing knives and darts and things or gangbangers are stabbing people. so when they get ahold of a knife, because they see it as a weapon on TV all the time, they immediately come to think of it as a weapon.

also, you cannot expect rational thought from a 13 or 14 year old, and in a lot of cases up to 15, 16, and 17. In that period, they are going through teenage angst and all that stuff. They aren't thinking about the long term consquences of their actions. All they care about is that they are getting embarassed in front of their peers, so they should probably pull their knife and teach the son of a bitch a lesson and regain their pride or something like that. During teenage years, your reputation among your friends tends to be one of the most important things to you.

right, the problem is not in the knives, but banning the knives is the only institutional way to fix the problem, since you can't exactly control parenting.

note that knives aren't banned on college campuses.

it's the same thing with drinking. there is nothing about turning 21 that magically gives you the ability to drink and drink responsibly. it's just that as a general rule, people who are 21 and over will be more mature and responsible than people who are 18 and will be less likely to do stupid things like drink and drive. Since you cannot assess each individual's level of maturity, you attempt to fix the problem by making the drinking age 21.

these laws and restrictions are designed to for the protection of the public, so that those who are too immature to possess something are not allowed to have it. the fact that a few people are mature enough to carry a knife to school or to drink responsibly when they're under 21 does not mean the law is bad or wrong.

you can also think of it this way. if they're responsible enough to be above the rules, i.e. carry a knife to math class or drink underage, then they should be responsible enough to hide it and not get caught. So if you are mature enough to EDC at the age of 14, great. Don't be stupid and flip a bali in math, keep that knife hidden, and you should be fine.

 

[Benjamin Liu]

also, you cannot expect rational thought from a 13 or 14 year old, and in a lot of cases up to 15, 16, and 17. In that period, they are going through teenage angst and all that stuff.

I disagree. It is not a biological impossibility. People 100 years ago had adult responsibilities at those ages. During the Civil War era 13 and 14 year olds even served in the military and some even married at those ages.

I carried a knife since I was 8 and joined Cub Scouts. I used my knives daily to make things. I usually carried either a Scout knife or an SAK, I preferred the SAK for the saw. When my friends and I would play army, Star Wars, Battlestar Galactica, etc, I'd take boxes and make thing slike tanks and space ships to play in, using my pocketknives as my main tool. I was also an outdoors type kid and I'd hike almost every day after school and I'd take care of my ducks, geese, and chickens every day, and a knife was needed to cut open feed sacks and things like that. A knife pretty much became a "part" of me and it feels REALLY wierd not to have one.

 

[Benjamin Liu]

I made this a separate post because I feel it is important. These kids need to be in Scouting. I may be critical of the Boy Scouts on some threads , but that is only because I think it is a good organization that is being run to the ground by PC. If the school system wants their students to be well-behaved when they are in junior high and high school they should encorage Scouting programs in the early grades, setting the kids on their way to good citizenship when they are young.

Good values should be taught as being "cool" and stupidity, laziness, criminality, and sheeplism looked down upon.

From my experience kids start going bad around 5th or 6th grade if they are not watched, and if their beligerent behavior is reinforced through lack of punishment by authorities and being thought of a "cool" by their peers. Some mature and grow out of it.

 

[ayz]

I didn't say it was a biological impossibility. I said it's not a likely occurence in today's youth.

I don't care what you did years ago. Also, the fact that you had to take care of ducks and geese and chickens means that you grew up in a more rural area where a knife was needed and thus considered a tool more so than a weapon.

when a kid goes to school in an urban area, 99% a knife becomes a weapon.

Good values should be taught as being "cool" and stupidity, laziness, criminality, and sheeplism looked down upon.

Awesome. I'm glad you feel this way. Whenever you finally get around to fixing all the parenting problems and setting right all the misguided youth in America, i'm sure you can talk to the appropriate people and they'll allow knives in public schools.

I'm glad you realize civil war era kids were mature. I have news for you. Prohibition was a law at one point. The laws are made to best suit the society they serve. In today's case, banning knives in public primary and secondary schools is in everyone's best interest.


The point is, the rules are in place to protect the group as a whole. The fact that a few individuals feel that they transcend the rule does not make it wrong or invalid.

The prevention of daily stabbings far outweighs the inconvenience of you being unable to peel an apple or dice something while going through a normal day of high school.

If you aboslutely need a knife when you hike or take care of your domestic fowl. Sure, carry one. Just pick it up and carry it after school. While in school, leave it at home.

I seriously doubt a middle or high schooler will ever actually NEED a pocketknife while in school. You sit through classes and eat lunch. If you need to cut something, scissors are available.

 

[Benjamin Liu]

We have a fundamental difference in social/political philosophy. I believe the individual's right outweigh society's demands except in possible emergency situations, and even then only with due process. For example, vehicles or fuel might need to be commandeered for an extreme emergency, but they must be paid for when it is done. Maybe a town needs to be evacuated and they need all the big vehicles they can find. Things like this are rare. I believe in punishing criminals and I don't believe in treating everyone as potential criminals. Unless someone has already demonstrated that they are irresponsible with a knife, leave them alone. An individual does not have to prove why he needs to carry his own property, society needs to prove why he can't.

The arguments you are using are the same ones used for gun control, national ID, no-knock warrants, spying on citizens, the Patriot Act, etc.

 

[ayz]

We have a fundamental difference in social/political philosophy. I believe the individual's right outweigh society's demands except in possible emergency situations, and even then only with due process. For example, vehicles or fuel might need to be commandeered for an extreme emergency, but they must be paid for when it is done. Maybe a town needs to be evacuated and they need all the big vehicles they can find. Things like this are rare. I believe in punishing criminals and I don't believe in treating everyone as potential criminals. Unless someone has already demonstrated that they are irresponsible with a knife, leave them alone. An individual does not have to prove why he needs to carry his own property, society needs to prove why he can't.

The arguments you are using are the same ones used for gun control, national ID, no-knock warrants, spying on citizens, the Patriot Act, etc.

Ok Mr. Anarchy. Whenever you take off your tinfoil hat and realize the system isn't out to get you, perhaps you can understand what i'm saying.

First off, gun control and patriot act are completely different things.

Unless someone has already demonstrated that they are irresponsible with a knife, leave them alone.

You say allow them until they have demonstrated that they are irresponsible with a knife. When that happens (ie the kid stabs someone), it is already too late.

Even with guns, there is an age limit on when you can purchase a gun. And even then, a background check is first done. Why can't this age limit be applied to knives as well? Or do you believe that children should be allowed to have guns as well unless they "prove that they are irresponsible for it?" Perhaps you like to hunt deer or shoot duck after school, and can handle it responsibly. Should that mean that everyone should be allowed to have guns in school? Does your convenience and bullsh1t beliefs on your personal rights mean that schools can risk repeat Columbines?

The knife thing isn't just about your own individual responsibility. say somehow somebody else snatches your knife in a fight and stabs someone. What then?

An individual does not have to prove why he needs to carry his own property, society needs to prove why he can't.

You need to realize that your rights end where others begin. Here's society's proof on why you can't. YOU ARE BRINGING SOMETHING THAT CAN VERY EASILY BE USED AS A DEADLY WEAPON INTO AN ENVIRONMENT NOT CAPABLE OF HANDLING IT. You do not have the right to endanger the safety of all your classmates. That is what bringing a knife to school does. This is also the reason why knife laws are in place for every state, restricting the blade lengths and types as they see fit. When you carry something that can very easily jeoparadize the safety of others and therefore their RIGHT TO LIFE (since you're so keen on talking about rights), you better have a damn good reason for why you are carrying it.

On that note, I would also like you to prove how and why a normal 7th grader in a suburban area, whose school day involves 5-6 classes and lunch, would EVER ABSOLUTELY NEED to have a knife.

 

[Esav Benyamin]

"My good reason to carry a knife is that God gave me rather weak teeth and rudimentary claws in an evolutionary trade-off. The hairy-armed person who figured out how to put an edge on a suitable rock made it possible for us to be recognizably human in the first place. I wear a wristwatch whether or not I have an appointment to keep, and I carry a pen and/or pencil because I am a literate person whether or not I have a specific writing task ahead of me, and I carry a knife because I am a human and not an ape.

A knife comes in handy for all sorts of random tasks that involve separating matter. Like cutting a string, or making a sandwich, or opening a package. It can also come in handy in an emergency, which need not involve a human assailant, and emergencies are by their nature unforeseen, so one should carry a knife all the time.

And in a perfect world where nobody needed a weapon, I'd probably carry a slightly larger knife, because it wouldn't scare people."

-- James K. Mattis z”l