not to offend Spyderco and BM fans, but this happened...

I spine Whapped my Manix several times on a rubber mouse pad thing and on the bare wood of my desk. No failure. Of course I do not carry a knife for self defense purposes. I actually don't care too much for folders, and I am always more careful using them.
 
Triton said:
I'm trying to figure out what sort of usage even in a self defense situation that a "spine whack" simulates. How would this ever happen? When?

Hey, if you want a knife that can stand up to spine wacks, cut through crow bars, whittle cement blocks and still be sharp enough to shave with that's great. I hope you find such a thing and can afford it when you do. However, when are you going to need to cut through crowbars and whittle concrete block with a knife? When are you going to need to have something that can take a determined whack on the spine without folding?
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I don't know what the purpose is of your sarcastic crow bar and concrete blocks remarks is about so I won't even comment on those.

I don't really want to make this into a big thing because I think I have one of the defective ones that Sal was talking about and I know that Spyderco will take care of it. However, I've done a fair amount of knife "sparing" and individual practice. If there was ever any way to prevent a fight (knife or not) or to leave the sceen, that's what I would do first and anyone with half a brain would do the same. So to keep this short, let's just say that anything can happen in a real fight. And I mean anything. Stuff you would never expect. Most of the situations that would cause the spine of a knife to be hit are rare. But it's like the semi-auto that only jams once every 500 rounds. That jam could happen when most needed.

Just a few possiblities:
Spine hit by another knife.
Spine hits a table, chair, wall, car, etc. while trying to avert an attack.
Spine hit by a stick or chair or bat (probably dead against a bat anyway).
There could be a hundred different senerios.

I of course admit that most all of these would never happen. Even the chance of needing a knife for SD is small. But lets say that you bought that gun mentioned above and the seller said "it's a great gun but it jams very very rarely". If you bought it for SD, wouldn't you look into getting it fixed? I sure would. So that's what I'll do with the Manix also. It's a great knife but mine seems to have a weak lock compared to what I've heard from others and the testing I've done.
 
And not that anyone cares but I'm selling a few of my folders and finally buying the Dozier FB that I've wanted for over a year. That will become my main SD knife when I can carry it. However, I still need to carry a folder some of the time and I have several that I go to when needed. And no, the Manix is not one I'm selling. It's a great work/camp knife but just over rated for SD in my opinion because of even the smallest chance of lock failure.

Regards
 
bladeprince said:
I don't know what the purpose is of your sarcastic crow bar and concrete blocks remarks is about so I won't even comment on those.
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My point was that those are also things you should not be doing with a knife. There are tools made for that sort of thing and there are knives made that you can hammer on the back of all day long without them folding. Of course they are not folders...

bladeprince said:
I don't really want to make this into a big thing because I think I have one of the defective ones that Sal was talking about and I know that Spyderco will take care of it.
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Totally understandable, after all we all want the best product we can get.

bladeprince said:
However, I've done a fair amount of knife "sparing" and individual practice. If there was ever any way to prevent a fight (knife or not) or to leave the sceen, that's what I would do first and anyone with half a brain would do the same. So to keep this short, let's just say that anything can happen in a real fight. And I mean anything. Stuff you would never expect. Most of the situations that would cause the spine of a knife to be hit are rare. But it's like the semi-auto that only jams once every 500 rounds. That jam could happen when most needed.

Just a few possiblities:
Spine hit by another knife.
Spine hits a table, chair, wall, car, etc. while trying to avert an attack.
Spine hit by a stick or chair or bat (probably dead against a bat anyway).
There could be a hundred different senerios.

I of course admit that most all of these would never happen. Even the chance of needing a knife for SD is small. But lets say that you bought that gun mentioned above and the seller said "it's a great gun but it jams very very rarely". If you bought it for SD, wouldn't you look into getting it fixed? I sure would. So that's what I'll do with the Manix also. It's a great knife but mine seems to have a weak lock compared to what I've heard from others and the testing I've done.
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Sigh I'm going to stir the pudding a little bit here, please understand that this is not aimed at you in particular Bladeprince.

Think about it, how many people of the thousands on this forum have ever used a knife for self defense? 1? 5? 10? Of those how many were using a tactical folder? Of those that have actually used their knife how many had that unwackable folder? How many had something happen that caused their folder to fold up on them? .001? .0001 ??? Statistically I'm betting the number is so small it does not exist.

I understand wanting the best knife you can have. Heck if you want one that can withstand spine wacking cool. I'm just wondering how realistic it is to worry about it. Of course I'm the guy that thinks batoning is sort of silly to so I'm just an all around knife heretic... :) Or maybe I just think choosing the right tool for the job is a good idea.
 
I had a spyderco manix, I know everybody loves the manix, but I must have had a defective one as well. I tested the back cut on a wood table and the lock definately failed, I ended up trading it away or something. I know my chinook II has never failed and remains being my EDC. I plan on getting another manix, but will definately test it first.
 
Triton said:
My point was that those are also things you should not be doing with a knife. There are tools made for that sort of thing and there are knives made that you can hammer on the back of all day long without them folding. Of course they are not folders...
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Understand the point you were making now.

I also agree that the need for knife SD is quite rare and a spine whack almost out of the question. However, I am one of those people that has been attacked and robbed so I know it happens. It was by three guys, one with a knife. He kept poking me in the stomach with it. I didn't get hurt badly (no stitches needed). However, they could have decided to do more (they said they were but didn't, thank god). So I suppose that I'm more intent on SD then most people. That's why I practice edged weapon SD and also want to carry only dependable blades (hence my move to a FB when possible). Unfortunately, those types of experiences are hard to let go of.

Regards
 
bladeprince said:
Understand the point you were making now.

I also agree that the need for knife SD is quite rare and a spine whack almost out of the question. However, I am one of those people that has been attacked and robbed so I know it happens. It was by three guys, one with a knife. He kept poking me in the stomach with it. I didn't get hurt badly (no stitches needed). However, they could have decided to do more (they said they were but didn't, thank god). So I suppose that I'm more intent of SD then most people. That's why I practice edged weapon SD and also want to carry only dependable blades (hence my move to a FB when possible). Unfortunately, those types of experiences are hard to let go of.

Regards
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Yikes! I'm curious why do you not carry a gun for self defense with that sort of experience?
 
Triton said:
Yikes! I'm curious why do you not carry a gun for self defense with that sort of experience?
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I've just never applied for a permit and sure don't want to be put away on a weapons charge. Plus, because of a little trouble I had in my past, I wasn't even supposed to own a firearm for many years. But a few years of paying a lawyer and I got all that taken care of so it's cool now. Also, I live in a much nicer neighborhood. I do carry one (or more, I like to shoot for a hobby) in my SUV whenever we travel or go camping. As age creeps in, getting a concealed weapons permit does sound like a good idea. Thanks for the reminder!
 
back to the original comment, i think the best knife is the one that gives its user the most confidence. a bad experience can taint anyones point of view forever, even if its a benchmade, who imo make some of the best folders in the business.
if my benchmade folded on my fingers i would be hesitant to use it thereafter, as i would with any piece of equipment that failed me.

sorry if this opinion has already been posted, but i saw the first post and didnt want to read through all 5 pages.:)
 
MORIMOTOM said:
back to the original comment, i think the best knife is the one that gives its user the most confidence. a bad experience can taint anyones point of view forever, even if its a benchmade, who imo make some of the best folders in the business.
if my benchmade folded on my fingers i would be hesitant to use it thereafter, as i would with any piece of equipment that failed me.

sorry if this opinion has already been posted, but i saw the first post and didnt want to read through all 5 pages.:)
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That was my point exactly earlier in this thread. Your own experiences will likely determine how you view different knives. For me, the BM Axis Lock "failed". As result, I don't really care what anyone else says about it for all its benefits. I also understand there's not much point trying to convince someone with an opinion based on poor personal experiences of how great the knives are that I like.
 
bladeprince said:
I've just never applied for a permit and sure don't want to be put away on a weapons charge. Plus, because of a little trouble I had in my past, I wasn't even supposed to own a firearm for many years. But a few years of paying a lawyer and I got all that taken care of so it's cool now. Also, I live in a much nicer neighborhood. I do carry one (or more, I like to shoot for a hobby) in my SUV whenever we travel or go camping. As age creeps in, getting a concealed weapons permit does sound like a good idea. Thanks for the reminder!
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No problem I need to quit talking and go do it myself.... or maybe not considering current events... perhaps it would be better to fly below that particular radar for a while.
 
Sal Glesser wrote -
As to spine-wacks, I think that an occasional light spine-tap is a good idea.
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That level of confidence, encouragement & waiting on user feedback as to strengths & weaknesses within his products - an OUTSTANDING display of principle.:thumbup:

I believe the owner of any product, especially self defence oriented, has a perfectly legitimate right to feel confident in the tool at hand.
 
Here's how I test lock strength. NOT RECOMMENDED FOR ANYONE. I wrap the blade in like 12 layers of towel and, holding blade and handle, try and close the thing against the lock. Never had an axis lock or good production liner lock fail. I have had lock backs fail, including a benchmade. That's why I don't trust lockbacks. I had one cheapo linerlock fail, the angle at the back of the blade wasn't right, a little file work and it was fine. Years later, I had that same lock fail under hard use, but it failed "correctly" for a liner lock - it jammed in the open position. The lock back system is one of the things that kept me from buying a Manix... now I'm glad I didn't.
 
Hey Prince,

I was under the impression that you were going to send that Manix in for us to check out.

We're still waiting?

sal
 
IUKE12 said:
I have one also, very impressive knife, the RAT-1 folder.:thumbup:
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I to have the RAT model 1. VERY impressed, but not surprised I have a RAT3 and soon a 5. I saw a review in TK where they batoning the knife thru a small log. This knif holds a wicked edge and resharpens easy. A heck of a lot of knife for the money.
 
Spine Whacks over the years (medium to heavy duty knives, not gentleman's folders):

BM - 520 Presidio (2 units) FAIL
BM - all other AXIS HK14210, 550, 707, 710 PASS (including 525 Mini Presidio)
BM - 905, 440 liner PASS
BM - 635 framelock PASS
AlliasII framelock - PASS

Spyderco - Military FAIL, Endura (2 units) 1 FAIL 1 PASS
Spyderco - Delica, Persian, Ocelot, Adventura, R2, Paramilitary, Wegner PASS

Quick observations (under moderate spine whack tests on wood or hard rubber):
1) titanium liners stick more (gall), leading to less failure;
2) the AXIS is great, but in my opinion tang too angled on the 520 leading to slip - that was the only cause for failure;
3) Frame locks (Ti again) seem to be failure proof;
4) Lock Backs are touchy - you can't see what's going on inside there, some catch well, others don't. Cannot be easily adjusted by user.

Lubrication also plays a big part, too much lube on the tang can lead to slip. But, in the real world, I am opening a can of oil or something, I am not thinking about where the "gunk" flies.

Angle and "springiness" of liner can affect lock. I had a Kershaw Leek that would fail light spine whacks. Took it apart, tweaked the liner (hammer punch close to contact point, bend liner for more springiness) and I could NOT make it fail under severe spine whack.

Just some random thoughts.
 
To add a little about the validity of spine whacks. I am not in SD or anything, I use knives as tools to cut. Period. Two example of why the spine whack is necessary:

1) cutting thick board and pulling out the knife resulted in the blade binding somewhat, finally releasing and hitting a pipe spine first. Glad it didn't fail!

2) working in tight space (engine) trying to slice a line, using the spine as lever.

So yeah, I test mine for a reason. Greasy hands in tight places = enough stress without worrying about tools. BUT, do I cry and moan when one fails? No, I do understand that these things fold! I either returned the knife (520) or clean it up and use it for straight-forward cutting (Endura). The Endura never gave me a problem, aside from the spine whack, and for cutting carpet, shingle (gasp!), cardboard for recycling, it's great.
 
I don't get why everyone goes nuts over spine whack tests. I've never had a knife fail that way (unless I fooled with the lock), but I have had knives fail while chopping and cutting in the real world. Sure spine whacks are fun to chit chat about online, but I just don't see the point. End of mini-rant. ;)
 
bladeprince said:
No way a cardboard box would do what you described to any D2 blade. Which, by the way, has nothing to do with BM but with the type of steel.
Regards
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No offense intended but that is just flat wrong. It has everything to do with the manufacturer and the heat treatment they employ or forget to employ. A particular blade steel can be and is expected to perform reliably given good and consistent heat treatment. D2 is a very good blade steel and if the edge is rolling from a single cardboard box, then I would conclude that the heat treatment went horribly wrong, or wasn't done at all.

Rus
 
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