Nutnfancy is Talking to Us.

[Gaurdian_A1]

on every outdoor forum there are weekend warriors, or couch bushcrafters and of course, Geeky survivalist wannabes..on every single forum revolving around the outdoor there are these kinds of people. I think the person in question ( i personally am not going to give him the credit of naming him) is referring to those circles or groups. Gear geeks ( which he is).

i dont care what he likes, reccommends and doesnt reccommend, what training he has, what military experience he has etc. He just has an opinion like any other person on this forum or any other forum, nothing more, nothing less.

at least he walks the walk.

why do any of you feel like he is pointing bladeforums members out in his video?

 

[Don Rearic]

That's not entirely true. The military may utilize civilian experts for new techniques or crafts, but they typically have their own schools for teaching things like mountaineering or advanced shooting, survival, etc... things that have been developed and well used buy the military. They may have "civilians" teaching or helping teach, but they're usually government employees who are retired from the military themselves. Not enlisted/commissioned, but not exactly civilians either.

I'm not saying you're completely wrong there, but a lot of the schools or courses are military or government taught.

In the early days of Delta Force, Col. Beckwith sought out anyone and any school that could help him form the nucleus of what would later be SOPs (Operator's Training Course) for Delta Troops. I'm sure he sent guys through the DAMES course like used to be held at Ft. Holabird and other places but he also, by his own admission, sent them to interview convicts when it came to safecracking and stealing cars, for example. He sent them to driving schools. He sent them to shooting schools.

The doctrine that has been ever-evolving through the years has its Genesis in the private sector.

Kelly Worden was the Chief Instructor (H2H, knife and stick) for the 1st SFG at Ft. Lewis for quite a few years.

There are so many things that we talk about and most of them came from regular Citizens that knew something that the military needed. What percentage? I don't know but I bet it is at least 75% of these specialized skills.

Even going back to the OSS, Col. Rex Applegate interviewed exhibition shooters, quick draw shooters, criminals, you name it.

If there is a military school for pursuit/E&E driving, for example, most of that probably came from Bondurant and Scotti. The reason being, it's easier to send troops to established schools for specialized skills instead of creating the whole thing out of thin air. It takes too much time to go through military channels to do that.

But for most of the specialized skills, it comes from us. What they do with it afterwards, who knows. But to say that a lot of this stuff is just created by the military would be totally incorrect.

 

[SemperParatus]

I agree and I'm not saying everything was created by the military or certain skills or crafts aren't learned from the civilian sector.

E&E driving is a good example of a skill that would almost certainly be learned from a civilian course, because it's not something that needs to be taught to the masses and would be a waste of time to make into a military course.

Mountaineering, shooting and things like that, however, are things that get taught over and over to many people, so it makes sense for the military to have it's own schools on the subjects.

You meantioned Delta and its founder as an example, but as I attempted to convey (and failed obviously), I'm not talking about new skills where obviously the military will need to tap the civilian experts. I'm refering to things the military has been doing for years and needs to teach over and over.


I should mention, I'm definitely not saying civilians aren't a reliable source on things like survival, guns, knives, etc... that would be rediculous to think. I'm just pointing out that the guy who I quoted was not 100% correct that most special skills are learned from civilians.

 

[psychophipps]

I agree and I'm not saying everything was created by the military or certain skills or crafts aren't learned from the civilian sector.

E&E driving is a good example of a skill that would almost certainly be learned from a civilian course, because it's not something that needs to be taught to the masses and would be a waste of time to make into a military course.

Mountaineering, shooting and things like that, however, are things that get taught over and over to many people, so it makes sense for the military to have it's own schools on the subjects.

You meantioned Delta and its founder as an example, but as I attempted to convey (and failed obviously), I'm not talking about new skills where obviously the military will need to tap the civilian experts. I'm refering to things the military has been doing for years and needs to teach over and over.


I should mention, I'm definitely not saying civilians aren't a reliable source on things like survival, guns, knives, etc... that would be rediculous to think. I'm just pointing out that the guy who I quoted was not 100% correct that most special skills are learned from civilians.

It was admittedly poor wording on my part. Perhaps a more correct version would be "most special skills were initially taught by civilians".

 

[R.A.T.]

I think there is this mythical belief that special techniques, tradecraft, etc. are only available to certian individuals who may have standing in the military community or a "need to know" basis. That's plain horseshit. For example, the tradecraft taught at the "farm" in North Carolina is easily available to anyone who wishes to pursue such knowledge on their own time. In fact most of the tradecraft comes directly from the "civilian" community. Civilian psychologists, for example, have played a major role in developing many techniques. The same goes for military tactics. Many are rooted in "primitive" cultures such as tactics used by American Indians. What makes military special is they train, train, train and then train some more. If you want to learn how to defeat an enemy then the best tactic is to know an enemy. As Don pointed out, some of the best escape artists in the world are convicts. You can bet if I were training a force of people to be able to escape, then I would find the worst (or best) convict I could to teach the class. Nothing against the military at all, but the bottom line is what makes a specialized military unit so good is the fact they train a lot and are trained under a discipline. BUT, some of the BEST operators in the world are not military and many of them have never had any formal military training. Never underestimate the unassuming Singleton when it comes to operating in harsh enviornements.

 

[R.A.T.]

As a side note, I have an acquaintance that has been in prison many times for making meth. The last time they finally flipped him and gave him a job teaching law enforcement his techniques since he was considered one of the best meth makers in the business. Now, I'm not stating this as an approval of going light on criminals but I am saying that sometimes you use the bad to make the good better. And that, in my opinion, is a very wise tactic. The CIA damn near crippled itself when the directive came down that our agents could not develop assets that had a shady background or criminal record. That was one of the most foolish things the Agency ever did. I think they have changed that ruling now

 

[Don Rearic]

As Don pointed out, some of the best escape artists in the world are convicts. You can bet if I were training a force of people to be able to escape, then I would find the worst (or best) convict I could to teach the class.

There is something to be said for simplicity as well. Former Delta Trooper Marshall Brown was convicted of multiple, armed rapes and burglaries to commit them. He escaped from a prison van while being transported. When they opened the door, he didn't hit anyone, he just bolted and ran like hell and his handcuffs fell off because he had picked them. They said he ran in the prison yard every day.

As a side note, I have an acquaintance that has been in prison many times for making meth. The last time they finally flipped him and gave him a job teaching law enforcement his techniques since he was considered one of the best meth makers in the business. Now, I'm not stating this as an approval of going light on criminals but I am saying that sometimes you use the bad to make the good better.

Well, I guess if they pay him well and he's not a meth-monkey and he was just in it for the money, he might not go back to doing what he did. If he is a junkie, he'll go back sooner or later.

As far as the users, man, how can you go light on someone that shoots, smokes or snorts a concoction partially made up of a sinus medication and lithium batteries? Seems like punishment enough!

And that, in my opinion, is a very wise tactic. The CIA damn near crippled itself when the directive came down that our agents could not develop assets that had a shady background or criminal record. That was one of the most foolish things the Agency ever did. I think they have changed that ruling now

That change took place under the Administration before the second Bush Administration. They thought that SigInt could take the place of HumInt. It comes as no surprise that oftentimes in order to get anything done, to get the dirt on a bunch of dirty bastards, you need some dirty sonsabitches to get it for you. It's just the natural way of things.

 

[R.A.T.]

A thinking man with too much time on his hands can do some pretty amazing things

 

[Cpl Punishment]

I think there is this mythical belief that special techniques, tradecraft, etc. are only available to certian individuals who may have standing in the military community or a "need to know" basis. . . .What makes military special is they train, train, train and then train some more. If you want to learn how to defeat an enemy then the best tactic is to know an enemy.

Which is why I laugh at people who "Don't want anything to do with that VC/AQ/BadGuyOfTheDay stuff -- they're the enemy!" Right. And if I want to kill my enemy in the most effective and efficient way, I want to know how he operates. Not only that, but once you get past the "he's a bad guy" thing, you'll find they often have some very good ideas. Like it or not, some of the most innovative and creative people in the world are career criminals. Only thing that separates them from being say, a business mogul, is that they chose to use their genius for illegal purposes.

As Don pointed out, some of the best escape artists in the world are convicts. You can bet if I were training a force of people to be able to escape, then I would find the worst (or best) convict I could to teach the class.

Another oft-disregarded resource for not just escape, but full blown E&E is hobos. I don't mean street bums. I mean people who choose homelessness as a lifestyle and often, but not always ride the rails, sleep in abandoned buildings, etc. I knew one girl who had set up quite a guerrilla apartment in the hidden recesses of a commercial building. Even ducted some of the A/C and heat into her space, and ran extensions cord to have power and recharge her battery operated devices.

There is something to be said for simplicity as well.

Complex stuff is for the movies because it looks all spooky and stuff. Fact is, it's more likely to get your own guys killed. Some of the most effective "special" operations are very simple in execution. But going back to what Jeff said about military training, yes, we trained all the time. But more to the point, we concentrated mostly on fighting in the dark, in the raid, in the snow, etc. I.E. the operations weren't complex, we just executed them in a time, place and environment where it is very difficult to fight, and unless you train to do so, you won't be able to perform effectively.

That's the advantage of the military, they are paid to do nothing BUT prepare to do their job (whatever that job may be). A civilian has to hold down a job, have adequate time for family, etc, and simply doesn't have the time, or tax dollars to be able to train on a nearly constant basis.

 

[R.A.T.]

That's the advantage of the military, they are paid to do nothing BUT prepare to do their job (whatever that job may be). A civilian has to hold down a job, have adequate time for family, etc, and simply doesn't have the time, or tax dollars to be able to train on a nearly constant basis.

Exactly!

 

[Don Rearic]

Another oft-disregarded resource for not just escape, but full blown E&E is hobos. I don't mean street bums. I mean people who choose homelessness as a lifestyle and often, but not always ride the rails, sleep in abandoned buildings, etc. I knew one girl who had set up quite a guerrilla apartment in the hidden recesses of a commercial building. Even ducted some of the A/C and heat into her space, and ran extensions cord to have power and recharge her battery operated devices.

Years ago, I found this piece...or a series...written by a guy on here named Jason Leonard. It was called, "The Joys of Being Homeless." I got his permission to basically store it on my website and it has been there for years.

I have been into all of that type of thought for years now.

One documentary my brother turned me onto was "Dark Days," that is an EXCELLENT film. It was about the homeless living adjacent to rail lines on AMTRAC Property in NYC. No matter what anyone's focus is when it comes to survival, they should see that film.

Then there are articles about the homeless living in the drains under Las Vegas as well. Fascinating stories with incredibly valuable little snippets of information here and there.

 

[gadgetgeek]

I heard a radio documentary on CBC once by a guy who spent several years "homeless" at the university of BC in Vancouver iirc. his biggest problem was maintaining an address as some places required a street address and not just a po box. He lived on campus by learning the security patterns and knowing which stairwell to sleep in. It was a while ago, so I may be fuzzy on the details but he did it for quite some time, and gained some minor celebrity status when it broke that he had been doing this. Where there is a will, there is a way for someone to be invisible, almost anywhere!

 

[bxrad36]

nutnfancy has caused me to buy hundreds and hundreds of dollars on guns and knives