Nutnfancy Reviewed the Sebenza. Hmm...

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stabman said:
Ever make a knife?
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No, I have not. Relatively speaking there is absolutely no comparison between vehicular engineering and knife engineering. That was my main point, and really I was just having fun with Wolf as he struck a sensitive nerve on that comparison. I am an engineer, they are worlds different. I am young, but give me a few days with some CAD and I could design you a functional knife. The same cannot be said of designing vehicle. A pocket knife may have maximum 10 moving parts? A car, who knows. Engineering is where the real money is spent in vehicles, CR has put very little into engineering as his knife is relatively unchanged. He had a high up-front cost 25 years ago, but basically he still makes the same knife. I know there have been a few tweeks here and there, but the amount of knives made for the amount of engineering put into it is well let's just say very favorable for Mr. Reeve. If GM wanted to keep the ratios where CR keeps his at, they would not last an hour. Not bashing him or his business model, it is very successful, and I applaud him and other near custom level production knife makers. They found a niche and are the best at it. They win awards and have a beautifully simple knife. I think though, that a reality check needs to be had for people who think the Sebenza is not marked up to $400 as a marketing scheme. It says to the buyer that it is exclusive. They feel like they have the best, and they paid for it. Is it incredibly precise? Absolutely, it is one of the best, but it is not twice as good as a Bradley Alias. I handled both, and compared them (do not own both, so no real comparison) and the Sebenza is not twice the Alias. Sorry, it is not. It does not cost $250/knife to maintain what little bit better tolerances CRK holds over a Spyderco Sage 2. No way, anyone who thinks that is nuts. Yes, I know Tawain vs. US labor, but I do not think the labor difference makes up the difference either. If you look at it from a business point of view, and take emotions out it, maybe you will see my points. Again, not try to bash CR, but many other companies have proven imo that $400 is an artificially inflated price. A ZT 560 for $260, Kershaw Volt for about the same, Alias for ~$200, heck you can get customs on here for less than $400 that are hand made completely and have tighter tolerances than CR.
 
I don't agree with everything nutnfancy says, but if you understand where he's coming from, what he says makes sense. You can make your own judgments based on his reviews if you understand him. He is the type of guy who is mostly all about function over form. He wants performance, and he wants it for the least money possible. He also feels like he needs to be ready for armed conflict at a moment's notice every day of the week, so he always considers the possibility that every knife may have tactical use. That's just his thing, and that's fine. You may think he's crazy, or you may agree with his life philosophy completely. Wherever you fall in there, that's fine too. We're all knife guys here, and I think nutnfancy is as well. You may hate the length of his reviews (I do), or the way he talks, or how he rated your favorite knife, but regardless of all that, I think he does "get it". He enjoys expensive knives just like you do. He may just have trouble recommending a $400 folder to the average guy that watches his channel. No need to get ruffled up about it.

There are of course exceptions to the generalizations I've made here. He sometimes admits to liking expensive things just because they are pretty or cool, and I think he was rude and out of line with the whole "douche knife" thing.
 
powernoodle said:
Thats unfair, and a copout really, because what you are doing is dismissing my conclusion without demonstrating why it is wrong. So tell me why I'm wrong. My belief is that 1) $400+ folders - the Sebenza included - are not objectively worth the cost if utility is the sole measure of value, but 2) these folders are worth the cost to those who derive $400 worth of enjoyment from their subjective view that the knife is cool, fun to own, opens like butter, impresses your buddies, and so forth. We need to distinguish between objective utility and subjective coolness. This view wasn't invented by either me or Nutnfancy, but its the essence of his 49 minute video distilled down to 15 seconds. So tell me why that conclusion is wrong please, instead of dismissing it as fanboy talk.

I love seeing someone enjoy their spendy knife, whether its a Sebenza, Hinderer, Microtech or whatever, because its contagious and its fun to hang out with someone who has a joie de vivre. But lets be honest about why they do it. Its not utility, or because that spendy knife opens a box better than my Tenacious. Its the fun and the good vibes that a spendy knife gives them.
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Unfair? Hardly. It just seems that some folks are drawn to the most fundamental things and leave it at that, as if nothing else existed. I choose not to engage in a discussion of value, because there is no point. It's a variable that cannot be defined as your economy, mine, and Bob's are completely different and have their own mitigating factors. I merely pointed out something very clear.

I choose to see and experience things for myself. For example, my purchases are not dictated specifically by an overall attention to Value vs Utility. While there might be some limited merit and truths in the review, it gets completely lost in the bloviation. If I like a knife, I buy it, simple. I don't choose to go over multiple POUs, tactical aspects, jimping dudes, etc. etc. In the end, if the knife doesn't work for me, it gets sold to fund something else that I might fancy (forgive the pun). Wile I am not a CRK fanboy (you can tell by my post count in here), I think the knives are infact high quality. I've checked some of the tolerances with calipers and they are pretty much as advertised.

In the end, Mr. Nutn went into that review not realizing the full extent of what it was that was in his hand. Most evident was the thumbstud and rounded spine monologues. He messed up that review plain and simple by being uninformed, repeatedly contradicting himself, and applying a generic template that cannot really be applied across the board objectively. Is he allowed to make mistakes? Of course! Just don't comeback next time acting as if you've batted 1000 all along with the arrogance to match.I think even you might agree that humility is a good character trait. That's all. ;)
 
I don't believe that many CRK customers buy his products because they think it has a cool factor, opens like butter or to impress their friends. Not that some don't, but most who can afford CRK's can buy much less expensive products for the purpose of show & tell.

Just speaking for myself of course, I purchased my CRK's because I appreciate the craftsmanship, simplicity, minimal designs, performance, warranty and customer support. I think as we grow older and finally reach a point of financial flexibility; we become more discriminating and willing to pay a higher cost of admission.

I don't necessarily agree with folks that automatically label CRK's as being overpriced, solely because they can purchase a similar tool, with a commensurate level of capabilities for much less. There are just too many other factors to consider. Primarily, the resale value.

Is $400 for a well made, well supported folding knife too much money? The answer is YES, if you can't afford it, or appreciate its craftsmanship, etc...But, the answer is NO, if it's within your means and especially if the product will retain the majority of its value for ions.
 
nccole said:
Alright, alright, as a huge gear head, that is a terrible analogy. Call me a Ferrari "fanboy" (more like a dreamer), but there is a lot more difference between a four door sedar and a carbon fiber, 620 hp screaming V12, finest leather, greater sound and so on than a $10 SS Sanrenmu 710 and a $400 Ti small Sebenza. Now performance wise you can match a Ferrari with say a $70,000 Corvette or a $90,000 GTR, but there is a lot more difference in the cost of materials that go into those cars than the difference in cost of materials of those two mentioned knives. Plus the R&D that Ferrari puts into its cars (first hand learned F1 technology) also warrants a higher price. There just is not that much in knife making. It is no where near as complex as vehicle engineering. Sure, higher tolerances on your machines and tighter quality control, but CR is not pushing the boundaries every year with new technology or improved this and that off the charts. I know the 25 has some improvements, but most improvements come in the steel category which does not have a whole lot to do with knife manufactures. Now, you are paying for the name some, you are paying for the heritage, prestige, and history, but not a fair comparison in my book. Sorry for the rant, and off-topic nature, you crossed into my other passion!

I do agree with Powernoodle and your general assestment of the sub-forum, but the Ferrari analogy crossed the line!:D
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It was a little over exaggerated but the point I was trying to make is that the sebenza is over cost for what it is and so is a Ferrari. That's not to say its a bad knife or a bad car, but for half the cost you can get a knife/car that will do the same thing.

Also, you cant tell me that a Ferrari at $250,000+ is a justified price. Yeah the materials are top quality but in no way does it cost 250,000 to make the car and cover manufacturing costs. The are paying for pride of ownership and the ability to say they drive a Ferrari.

Im not trying to step on your toes with your other passion for cars I was just sayin :D

just for fun what do you drive?
 
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powernoodle said:
Thats unfair, and a copout really, because what you are doing is dismissing my conclusion without demonstrating why it is wrong. So tell me why I'm wrong. My belief is that 1) $400+ folders - the Sebenza included - are not objectively worth the cost if utility is the sole measure of value, but 2) these folders are worth the cost to those who derive $400 worth of enjoyment from their subjective view that the knife is cool, fun to own, opens like butter, impresses your buddies, and so forth. We need to distinguish between objective utility and subjective coolness. This view wasn't invented by either me or Nutnfancy, but its the essence of his 49 minute video distilled down to 15 seconds. So tell me why that conclusion is wrong please, instead of dismissing it as fanboy talk.

I love seeing someone enjoy their spendy knife, whether its a Sebenza, Hinderer, Microtech or whatever, because its contagious and its fun to hang out with someone who has a joie de vivre. But lets be honest about why they do it. Its not utility, or because that spendy knife opens a box better than my Tenacious. Its the fun and the good vibes that a spendy knife gives them.
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You nailed some solid points here. I like the cut of your jibe, Noodle, and I don't care what people say about you.

Prof.
 
High tolerances and an incredibly high production quality = high price. Same as everything in this world. Stereos, cars, guns, guitars, homes., etc. Whether you have and want to pay the price for those things is completely subjective and has nothing to do with the object itself. Price has a way of working it's way to value over time. I myself had never heard of Chris Reeve knives until I just a few months ago and it was NOT advertising that brought me to it. So I don't think that CRK has an incredible marketing machine that tricks people into thinking theeir knives are something they aren't. It was the design, weight, craftsmanship, etc that made me want the sebenza. Up until I decided to buy a small seb the most expensive knife I had owned was a Spyderco Dragonfly. But once I held and inspected the Sebenza I had to struggle with the price and eventually I gave in. The large Sebenza soon followed. Want a utility knife? Buy a utility knife, you never have to sharpen it, just replace the razor blade. Calling a Ferrari a douche car because your Corvette is just as fast is stupid. That said, no one says NutnFancy's opinion is wrong, it's just his opinion. If people want to follow him and trust his opinion instead of developing their own then that's their business. I've watched his reviews in the past and I'll watch them in the future. I like how he talks. But I don't take his opinions as my own. I have my own opinions.
 
stabman said:
Ever make a knife?
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Good point

Also, one need not make a knife to appreciate (or not) the differences in tolerance.

I could see a strong argument for some to dismiss all but ergos and ability to do the job they want....and once you do that the price point can be reduced quite a bit....but that is not really the point;)
 
wolf5391 said:
It was a little over exaggerated but the point I was trying to make is that the sebenza is over cost for what it is and so is a Ferrari. That's not to say its a bad knife or a bad car, but for half the cost you can get a knife/car that will do the same thing.

Also, you cant tell me that a Ferrari at $250,000+ is a justified price. Yeah the materials are top quality but in no way does it cost 250,000 to make the car and cover manufacturing costs. The are paying for pride of ownership and the ability to say they drive a Ferrari.
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It takes talented people to design all the components that go into a car and make everything work. It takes engineers to design the body of the car to be streamlined to minimize air resistance. It takes engineers to design every component in that car. Auto makers have to design and redesign things year after year. Do you know how much engineers get paid? The costs the company has to pay out include the materials, machinery, workers, engineers, advertising, insurance, the cost of the building, maintenance, utilities, and the list goes on. If you're going produce a product with tighter tolerances, more expensive materials and closer attention to detail than the competition, it's going to cost more. If you succeed, you earn a reputation and yes, can charge a premium price. A ferrari may cost $100,000 to produce, but the company has to make a profit to be viable. If it's going to recruit experienced, senior engineers, it's going to pay a lot for that. Plus Ferrari isn't churning out 100,000 cars a year. Lower volume = higher cost per unit. This is basic economics.

Knives are far less complex than cars. Look at just about any folding knife and what you have is a blade, a handle, some type of pivot mechanism and a lock mechanism. Knives are simpler than cars but there are obviously vast differences in price. The higher cost of a Sebenza is in the very tight tolerances. It's that simple. Getting tolerances tighter can easily double the cost of production. Tighter tolerances, excellent warranty service, fanatic attention to detail. That's why a Sebenza costs a lot. Yeah, you can get pride of ownership from it. You can get the spa treatment every decade and make it look brand new.

I have a Sage 2. It's great. It probably cuts things as well as a Sebenza. But I can cut things with a $1 disposable razor too. This hobby isn't only about utility. It's about materials, F&F, tolerances, pride of ownership, and enjoying using the knife. Personally I don't care enough about tight tolerances to purchase a Sebenza right now. I'm sure it has tighter tolerances than the Sage 2. That's the main reason why it costs 2x as much. Tighter tolerances = way more expensive.
 
I love this dialogue only true knife aficionados can make these statements. That is why bladeforum Rocks. Bigup to the lower 48. Sebenza for Life!!!!!!!!!!!
 
Having watched nutnfancy over the years, his own philosophy of use has changed. Example now all he talks about is microtech where before it was the sog or rat 1. He has found a way to make a living with this whether he says it or not. If CRK would have given him the knife for review it would have been the greatest thing since sliced bread. You can't fault a guy for figuring out how to work the system. I own several CRK's and I buy them for no other reason than I like them. I have always made up my own mind what to buy or not buy. I'm not gonna buy a knife just because somebody else thinks it is the best. Decide for yourself and you will not be disappointed.
 
I think comments about the high cost of a CRK knife should take into account that they hold their value very well over time. Hold on to one for a few years and you can pretty much count on getting close to what you paid for it, if not more. I sold an early Sebenza I had for over 15 years for 2x what I paid for it (still wish I hadn't, though). That makes it the least expensive knife I ever owned.
 
Fanglekai said:
It takes talented people to design all the components that go into a car and make everything work. It takes engineers to design the body of the car to be streamlined to minimize air resistance. It takes engineers to design every component in that car. Auto makers have to design and redesign things year after year. Do you know how much engineers get paid? The costs the company has to pay out include the materials, machinery, workers, engineers, advertising, insurance, the cost of the building, maintenance, utilities, and the list goes on. If you're going produce a product with tighter tolerances, more expensive materials and closer attention to detail than the competition, it's going to cost more. If you succeed, you earn a reputation and yes, can charge a premium price. A ferrari may cost $100,000 to produce, but the company has to make a profit to be viable. If it's going to recruit experienced, senior engineers, it's going to pay a lot for that. Plus Ferrari isn't churning out 100,000 cars a year. Lower volume = higher cost per unit. This is basic economics.

Knives are far less complex than cars. Look at just about any folding knife and what you have is a blade, a handle, some type of pivot mechanism and a lock mechanism. Knives are simpler than cars but there are obviously vast differences in price. The higher cost of a Sebenza is in the very tight tolerances. It's that simple. Getting tolerances tighter can easily double the cost of production. Tighter tolerances, excellent warranty service, fanatic attention to detail. That's why a Sebenza costs a lot. Yeah, you can get pride of ownership from it. You can get the spa treatment every decade and make it look brand new.

I have a Sage 2. It's great. It probably cuts things as well as a Sebenza. But I can cut things with a $1 disposable razor too. This hobby isn't only about utility. It's about materials, F&F, tolerances, pride of ownership, and enjoying using the knife. Personally I don't care enough about tight tolerances to purchase a Sebenza right now. I'm sure it has tighter tolerances than the Sage 2. That's the main reason why it costs 2x as much. Tighter tolerances = way more expensive.
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tighter tolerance are more expensive and you are correct in saying that once a reputation is earned they can charge a premium which they do.

But once the engineers who get paid big bucks to design the car/knife, the pattern is down and is easily repeatable. Yes the initial costs are great but once the assembly line is perfected then the design are easily repeated and done over and over.

In other words the design stays the same and the Price keeps going up and up every year. Why? because the owner of the company wants more money in there pockets.

yes costs of materials go up but there is a lot more money being taken than just cost of materials. Cost of materials is a good excuse to jack prices up and they take full advantage even if the upgrade is not that big of an upgrade./cost to them.

Example: Chris charged $20-30 more per blade when he upgraded (if you call it that knowing he doesn't harden it high enough) the s30v to the s35vn. The difference in the price of those steels is so small that his prices maybe went up by a fraction of that $20-30. You could argue the heat treatment as being a more involved heat treat than s30v but its not, its almost the exact same treatment process(refer to charts).

here the data sheets from Crucible and Ill let you compare:

(s30v's data sheet)
http://www.crucible.com/PDFs\DataSheets2010\dsS30Vv1 2010.pdf

(s35vn's data sheet)
http://www.crucible.com/PDFs/\DataSheets2010\dsS35VNrev12010.pdf


My point is that no matter the cost of making the object at hand (whether it be car or knife) the manufacture always tries to get as much money for the product if it has made a name for itself as being a quality product. And people are willing to pay for way over priced stuff because of the name and show off characteristics of the object.

This isn't limited to just the car and knife industries, its with everything.

Novelty= Sky high prices that not necessarily reflect the cost of materials but have the sort of "it" factor for a collector.

Functional lower items= novelty grade materials and great fit and finish with lower cost.
 
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spydiesteve said:
Having watched nutnfancy over the years, his own philosophy of use has changed. Example now all he talks about is microtech where before it was the sog or rat 1. He has found a way to make a living with this whether he says it or not. If CRK would have given him the knife for review it would have been the greatest thing since sliced bread. You can't fault a guy for figuring out how to work the system. I own several CRK's and I buy them for no other reason than I like them. I have always made up my own mind what to buy or not buy. I'm not gonna buy a knife just because somebody else thinks it is the best. Decide for yourself and you will not be disappointed.
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that is all one can do. Its all about personal preference
 
Do what you will for yourself and be happy. If you can sleep at night with the decisions of the day, great. As long as you have good intentions. I'm willing to bet, either way, nutnfancy bought his CRK with the money that he makes off of youtube. He admitted to buying new tires for his truck with such funds. He got a lot of us into cheaper knife collecting before we found higher end knives such as CRK. In some way we are all influenced by him. With his name as a coupon code I have had free shipping on a lot of websites or some sort of discount. I thank him for that. I enjoy his military service, whether of not everyone does. Thanks for his respect for all law enforcement, civil service and military. We are all involved in this awesome hobby. Guns, flashlights, knives...edc things. People like us, him and others help keep interests in laws/rights so that we can carry and buy these things. So many others cringe when we talk about our knives or guns. It's hilarious how my family reacts. I served my country and never hurt anyone with a knife. Most of us were trained to be able to run over an IED and deal with the aftermath. Yet it's okay to deploy overseas to be put into possible harms way. Yet shouldn't be able to carry a knife or gun responsibly as a civilian? Than GOD for all of you who went over, served and those that got hurt, be well somehow.

I'm off topic now. I think you get what I mean. In a way though...back to Nutnfancy. I respect some things he has done. I do believe in walking softly and carrying a big stick or nice edc knife. He obviously wouldn't have the success that he has without walking loud and proud. I just don't like how he over praises himself these days. Has become his own biggest fan. A lot of lemmings on his channel who cannot think for themselves. He is a patriot. But so are many of you that don't need to talk about it. Like a divorce, your opinions and thoughts change over the years. Don't get me started on the need for Veri. Seriously? She seems mean...and he needs her to stick up for him? To remove trolls and such from his threads? I think he is the only big reviewer on youtube who does. So much for tactical. Tacitcal Veri is always deployed. :thumbup:
 
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wolf5391 said:
It was a little over exaggerated but the point I was trying to make is that the sebenza is over cost for what it is and so is a Ferrari. That's not to say its a bad knife or a bad car, but for half the cost you can get a knife/car that will do the same thing.

Also, you cant tell me that a Ferrari at $250,000+ is a justified price. Yeah the materials are top quality but in no way does it cost 250,000 to make the car and cover manufacturing costs. The are paying for pride of ownership and the ability to say they drive a Ferrari.

Im not trying to step on your toes with your other passion for cars I was just sayin :D

just for fun what do you drive?
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Much of Ferrari's cost is in its developmental stage, but I am sure their workers are well compensated, and the big wigs are living large! They definitely make more per car than GM does, but you might be surprised. However, Lexus decided to make a supercar, the LFA, and it sells for ~$450,000. Ten years I believe of developing means they do not make a dime on any car they sell! They are breaking even on that project, but it was their first try at a supercar.

I currently drive a 1997 Acura CL, my wife drives a 2004 Grand Prix. My little Acura is nothing too special, but one heck of a good car. It just goes with very little complaints. I paid $4000 cash for it and have put very little money in it, in fact just last year I replaced the battery it left the factory with! I do plan to have a Ferrari (a 456 most likely) as soon as my wife joins me in the making money business and gets out of the racking up debt business:D
 
nccole said:
Alright, alright, as a huge gear head, that is a terrible analogy. Call me a Ferrari "fanboy" (more like a dreamer), but there is a lot more difference between a four door sedar and a carbon fiber, 620 hp screaming V12, finest leather, greater sound and so on than a $10 SS Sanrenmu 710 and a $400 Ti small Sebenza. Now performance wise you can match a Ferrari with say a $70,000 Corvette or a $90,000 GTR, but there is a lot more difference in the cost of materials that go into those cars than the difference in cost of materials of those two mentioned knives. Plus the R&D that Ferrari puts into its cars (first hand learned F1 technology) also warrants a higher price. There just is not that much in knife making. It is no where near as complex as vehicle engineering. Sure, higher tolerances on your machines and tighter quality control, but CR is not pushing the boundaries every year with new technology or improved this and that off the charts. I know the 25 has some improvements, but most improvements come in the steel category which does not have a whole lot to do with knife manufactures. Now, you are paying for the name some, you are paying for the heritage, prestige, and history, but not a fair comparison in my book. Sorry for the rant, and off-topic nature, you crossed into my other passion!

I do agree with Powernoodle and your general assestment of the sub-forum, but the Ferrari analogy crossed the line!:D
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I disagree. You're forgetting that Ferrari is a MUCH smaller company that either Chevrolet or Nissan. Smaller company = less manufacturing capability (less cars produced) = higher overhead cost (especially for things like R&D) = higher price to the end user. Not to mention, almost every single part of a Ferrari is made in house, on machinery that they make, to produce VERY few parts for limited runs of cars. It's hard to even comprehend the amount of capital that goes into something "simple" like an exhaust manifold. Compare that to Chev or Nissan who have factories (which are bigger than Ferrari's whole operation) solely dedicated to making only a certain few components.

I imagine you'd be shocked at how cheaply a ferrari 458 Italia could be produced given the resources of either Nissan or Chevrolet. Bottom line, anything which is in a specialty niche like CRK or Ferrari is going to cost more than their massed produced counter parts.
 
Bottom line said:
I personally find your insight to be quite correct, not only for CRK and Ferrari but for my own "specialty niche" business as well. I attempt to produce a superior product line in a small shop that requires all the equipment and tooling used by companies with greater resources and larger customer base. My own personal rewards come from pride in my product and not (unfortunately) in the net profit gained.

I am willing to bet perhaps Chris Reeve started out this way too. I think CRK is a real American success story. The product certainly sells itself and I am fortunate to own one or two. :)
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Maybe it's all due to the amount of money he is making from his online promotions, that however is relative but perhaps to him it's a lot . One mans fortune is not enough to get another out of bed. I mean even jdavis882, whom is about the only person on here that I subscribe to or pay any attention to at this time probably makes a tiny amount a year, nothing per hour in my opinion but I find his videos much better than the one from nutnfancy I saw here. The irony is he is saying he doesn't like group mentality, but that is the single thing propelling him. It's a bad joke.
 
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