O.T. A matter of Respect.... A Rant!

[Yvsa]

Rant:

I am thoroughly pissed! :grumpy:

I was reading a column in today's newspaper earlier about taking Christ.... Out of Christmas.
As you all know, or at least those of you who are familiar with me know, I am not a Christian, but that becomes moot about what I'm going to say. It's all a matter of Respect!

Partly copied directly from the article derived from the story from Reuters:

The article was talking about the Pope battling to keep Christ in Christmas and how he has defended nativity scenes that are being stripped from holiday celebrations in some Italian schools to avoid offending non-Christians.

The column also stated that one school in Como Italy has edited out "Gesu" (Jesus) and replaced it with the word "virtu" (virtue) in its choir's renditions of Christmas hymns.

Then there is the elementary school in Treviso, a northern Italian city, that has decided to nix its traditional Christmas pageant depicting the birth of Christ to present a dramatic, um, Virtumas presentation of Little Red Riding Hood!
The teachers said the famous tale was a fitting representation of good and evil and would not offend Muslim children. :grumpy:
And Muslim children, it turns out, are the only "non-Christians" in the Reuters story.

Not Jews, not atheists, not whatever other minorities are content to live in a historically Roman Catholic country and just walk by the old creche without "taking offense," that traumatic postmodern condition more damaging and contagious than any plague or pestilence.

But why does a seasonal depiction marking the anniversary of the single-most significant religious, historic and cultural event in the Western world offend anyone in the first place?

"I don't get it" as Diane West, the lady who wrote the column says.
I don't get it either. Even though I am not a Christian I do recognise that Christ was born into this world and was a great teacher and I can respect that.
Christmas may not be a holiday that I celebrate as such but I do respect those who do.
And IMO so should others that aren't of the Christian belief!!!
The world has gotten too damned politically correct and worry about hurting other's feelings way too much. If the Christians can respect the Muslim Holy Days then it should be reciprocated and the Muslim respect the Christian's Holy Days.
This also applies to other belief systems one of which I belong too!
Way too often we forget that Religious Freedom works Both Ways!!!!:grumpy:

A nativity scene is not offensive too me nor are the other trappings of Christmas time.
I do have to admit though that I get really, really, tired of hearing Christmas Carol's from the Friday after Thanksgiving or before until the end of December but that's no reason to take offense that I can see.

The only thing I take offense at is a Christian continuing to try "saving me" after I've told them I'm not interested, as way too many are adamant at trying to make me believe something I don't.

But that doesn't stop me from saying to all that celebrate Christmas.....

A Very Merry Christmas to all!!!!

/Rant

 

[Cabbit]

This isn't the first time its happened Yvsa.

What we know as Christmas is a conglomeration of old Pagan holidays that occur around the winter solstice.

When the early Catholic Church was converting Pagans to Chritianity they found a great deal of resistance to dropping these old celebrations. Hence they 'rebranded' the Winter Solstice celebrations as Christmas.

This is why many of the European ethnicities have Christmas traditions that vary so greatly, they are actually holdovers from different pagan faiths!

In short, the celebrations stay the same, people just change the reasons for them.

 

[Steely_Gunz]

First of all, a very happy winter solstice to you, Yvsa
I have to agree with you on this one. Look, i'm not a "good" Chritian. i don't go to church as often as i should. I take the Lord's name in vain at times. i couldn't tell you what's in the book or Romans, Mathew, or Luke. however, I am a Christian. I believe in what Christ did. I also believe that as long as someone is not hurting me any, then i'm going to let him or her believe what he or she wants to believe. I honestly believe that there are a lot of people in a better place somewhere having a good chuckle at all the things we -know- are -truths- down here. But why can't they just let Christmas be? I agree. Those Christians that try to save you are pretty annoying, but Christmas is just a good holiday. It's not about what you believe or don't believe. It's not about forcing anything on anyone. It's not even as "violent" as Easter. I mean, come on the whole holiday is just a big birthday party for a very special baby to many of us in the world. How does saying "Merry Christmas" hurt anyone? When Christians say that they don't mean "Hey Christ was born today, and He was so great that you should convert...Pagan!" Saying Merry Christmas to most is just a way of saying "Have a great day. A man that is very important to my faith was born today. I hope you can find the same peace." I'm not even going to weigh in on the Nativity scene. I can't see how a cutaway of a stable with a few guys in robes and a baby can make anyone all that upset.
People get so bent out of shape over Consitutional and Dec. of Ind jargon by trying to figure out what they "mean". Look, America is a democratic country not Let's-make-everyone-feel-special Land. Democratic, that means the majority rules. The majority of people in this country are Christians so let Christmas have a fair shake this time of year. Furthermore, most Christians are like me, not perfect or fanatical. We just want to be able to see the traditional stuff, think about our families, and blanket ourselves in that warm fuzzy Christmas spirit....until we get to the mall to do our shopping I think that they Jews, Muslims, and all other non-Christian beliefs have beautiful traditions that i would not only like to learn more about but would also like to see hit the mainstream. i just don't think Chistmas should be dumped on because it might offend a fanatic of some other religion.
Thank you weighing in on this, Yvsa. Very sane logic indeed

just my thoughts on the matter
Jake

 

[Bill Marsh]

What we know as Christmas is a conglomeration of old Pagan holidays that occur around the winter solstice.

It is still called "Candlemas" in some pagan religions. Not exactly the same day, but close.

 

[Thomas Linton]

A school district in New Jersey has outlawed singing or playing of any "Christian" sings or instrumental works, such as The Messiah.

 

[Pan Tau]

Amen
to what Yvsa said.
We are giving up culture and reason to be "nonoffensive".
I am a Christian - I know where the Christmas traditions come from - but its not the traditions I celebrate - it is Christmas - and I could do so any other time of the year.
We are discriminating in order not to discriminate. (Maybe anybody has heared what happened to soon to be European Comissioner Buttiglione - he was rejected because of his conservative standpoint on gay-rights and family. Why can´t he be allowed to have this standpoint? He made clear that it was his private standpoint - not his political position. Over here it is possible to become politician if you took bribes and got caught - but not very likely if you are a conservative Christian - most of the new Ministers of the Social-Democrat Party rejected the "with God´s help"-Part in their oath - sure I would like to see politicians using this part of the oath - but only if they believe in it...).

I have no Problem with Muslims celebrating Ramadan - or any other religion celebrating anything (or nothing like Jehovas Witnesses) - I would even fight for their right to do so - but do not anybody try to keep me from celebrating Christmas.

Have a very merry christmas (Christian cantinistas)
- or just some great free time with your beloved ones (Nonchristian cantinistas)

Andreas

 

[Dave K]

This non-Christian also agrees with Yvsa.

In this country this issue seems to be driven more by the left than by Islam.

Maybe Europe is different?

-Dave

 

[hollowdweller]

I am a Christian but I believe a lot of this Christmas and Christians under attack stuff is overblown to try to energize the fundamentalist voting block.

The town nearest my house has a live nativity scene near city hall on city property. I was in the Mall today and heard kids singing O come all ye faithful.
I was listening to Public Radio last night and they were doing religious carols with bible readings between them.

While I don't dispute that there are places where nativity scenes are shut down, or other public displays of religion are curtailed, I think they mainly represent isolated incidents that are being overblown to activate certain groups to political advantage. Much like fundamentalist Islam makes it out like the west is out to destroy Islam. It's good for recruiting purposes.

Another thing to consider is that in Europe they do have a lot more of various religions. With the problems they are having with Islamic fundamentalisim in those countries it might not be a bad idea to severely limit public display of any religion.

 

[pmel018]

Hi guys its the same down here, left leaning liberal white peopletelling us we have to be tolerant by doing away with our own traditions. The Muslims, Jews and Hindus are all saying "we aren't offended or threatened" but still it goes on. The majority of non-Christians feel there own faiths are quite robust enough to survive some carols and Nativity scenes. The major churches are not sufficiently militant about it as they are infested with left leaning liberal white people.
Merry Christmas (regardless of faith)

 

[Cabbit]

Well put Hollowdweller.

 

[kronckew]

This non-Christian also agrees with Yvsa.

In this country this issue seems to be driven more by the left than by Islam.

Maybe Europe is different?

-Dave

What Muslim objected to the xmas celebrations? Most true muslims i know would not object to christians (or jews) celebrating their own religious festivals, they are all 'people of the book' (the Quran) and jesus was a prophet of islam as well. they might object to conversion attempts from over-zealous 'evangelical' bigots, but it looks to me like it's the PC lefties pushing their own agendas. Of course, what do i know, i only spent 10 years in the middle east.

 

[pmel018]

Me again
Interesting that for about 1500 years the most important Christian festival was Easter, not Christmas. In some countries it still is, nicely coincides with Spring in the Northern hemisphere. No doubt also a pagan celebration co-opted by early Christians.
Phil

 

[Cabbit]

Me again
Interesting that for about 1500 years the most important Christian festival was Easter, not Christmas. In some countries it still is, nicely coincides with Spring in the Northern hemisphere. No doubt also a pagan celebration co-opted by early Christians.
Phil

Yup it was, a fertility celebration.

That's where the tradition of the Easter Bunny, The eggs and baby chicks come from...

No one knows the real date of Jesus's birth or Crucifixion.

 

[Thomas Linton]

What Muslim objected to the xmas celebrations? Most true muslims i know would not object to christians (or jews) celebrating their own religious festivals, they are all 'people of the book' (the Quran) and jesus was a prophet of islam as well. they might object to conversion attempts from over-zealous 'evangelical' bigots, but it looks to me like it's the PC lefties pushing their own agendas. Of course, what do i know, i only spent 10 years in the middle east.

It's not the followers of "other" religions that object. A local ACLU chapter objected to the Ten Commandments being displayed in a local town square - get this - on the ground that it would offend those of the Jewish faith. (Moses says, "Take Ten.")

 

[lcs37]

The ACLU is the enemy within. They are out to destroy anything resembling what America stands for. They want to gut us like a fish and tramp on the innards. POWER to tell others what they CAN'T DO.
I get so mad I can't spit.

 

[hollowdweller]

But the one thing that united them all was "Mr Hankey" ! Anybody ever see that South Park episode! Right up the line about what we are talking about.

 

[Aardvark]

Aw, cmon, LCS. Aren't you glad that there's a group that will tell us when we are being offended? Not only that, they are offended FOR us. Now, that's service.

 

[lcs37]

Aw, cmon, LCS. Aren't you glad that there's a group that will tell us when we are being offended? Not only that, they are offended FOR us. Now, that's service.

It's all about CONTROL of others. Someone with power and the knowledge needs to find every defect in their organization and bring them down.

 

[hollowdweller]

The ACLU is the enemy within. They are out to destroy anything resembling what America stands for. They want to gut us like a fish and tramp on the innards. POWER to tell others what they CAN'T DO.
I get so mad I can't spit.

That's funny. I think they are out to preserve our way of life. To quote the founding fathers:

"If we look back into history for the character of the present sects of Christianity, we shall find few that have not in turns been persecutors and complainers of persecution. The primitive Christians thought persecution extremely wrong in Pagans, but practiced it on one another. The first Protestants of the Church of England blamed persecution on the Roman church, but preactied i on the Puritans. They found it wrong in Bishops, but fell into the practice both here (England) and in New England"--Benjamin Franklin, _Poor_Richard_, 1758

"Whenever we read the obscene stories, the voluptuous debaucheries, the cruel and tortuous executions, the unrelenting vindictiveness with which more than half the Bible is filled, it would be more consistent that we call it the word of a demon than the word of God. It is a history of wickedness that has served to corrupt and brutalize [hu]mankind." -- Thomas Paine, _The_Age_of_Reason_

"I have examined all the known superstitions of the Word, and I do not find in our particular superstition of Christianity one redeeming feature. They are all alike, founded on fables and mythology. Millions of innocent men, women and children, since the introduction of Christianity, have been burnt, tortured, fined and imprisoned. What has been the effect of this coercion? To make one half the world fools and the other half hypocrites; to support roguery and error all over the world … The clergy converted the simple teachings of Jesus into an engine for enslaving mankind … to filch wealth and power to themselves. [They], in fact, constitute the real Anti-Christ. —Thomas Jefferson "

 

[stevomiller]

Easter as such is a morph of pagan holidays; Passover, however, coincides with the both the early Christian and Jewish tradition. After all, the earliest Christians were Jews!