O.T. A matter of Respect.... A Rant!

I'm not offended by groups or individuals celebrating whatever holidays they wish. I am offended by them using public/government/taxpayer resources and facilities to do it. I am even more offended by the use public schools and school-sponsored events to brainwash young children into following a particular religion.

There has never been a law to remove a nativity scene from a churchyard. There has never been a government crackdown on church choirs singing religious-oriented holiday songs. And with strict enforcement of "Seperation of Church and State" hopefully there never will.

Just thought I'd give a view from "the other side."

Best Wishes and Happy Holidays to Everyone,
-Bob
 
Here in Japan they INSIST on every little part of Christmas. They dont believe in it, but they HAVE to have it.
Stars, angels, songs about Jesus, nativity scenes, you name it.
I cnt tell you how many times I have been asked to teach pronunciation for those older Christmas songs.
Why do they do it?
Because its December, and thats what Japanese people do in December.
(No thought or belief is involved)

On the upside, I have agreed to play santa claus on Christmas day in Tokyo. 3 hours of work will earn me 500$

Not bad huh?
There are times when it pays to be a big, fat, white man with blue eyes and pink cheeks.
 
hollowdweller said:
That's funny. I think they are out to preserve our way of life. To quote the founding fathers:

"If we look back into history for the character of the present sects of Christianity, we shall find few that have not in turns been persecutors and complainers of persecution. The primitive Christians thought persecution extremely wrong in Pagans, but practiced it on one another. The first Protestants of the Church of England blamed persecution on the Roman church, but preactied i on the Puritans. They found it wrong in Bishops, but fell into the practice both here (England) and in New England"--Benjamin Franklin, _Poor_Richard_, 1758

"Whenever we read the obscene stories, the voluptuous debaucheries, the cruel and tortuous executions, the unrelenting vindictiveness with which more than half the Bible is filled, it would be more consistent that we call it the word of a demon than the word of God. It is a history of wickedness that has served to corrupt and brutalize [hu]mankind." -- Thomas Paine, _The_Age_of_Reason_

"I have examined all the known superstitions of the Word, and I do not find in our particular superstition of Christianity one redeeming feature. They are all alike, founded on fables and mythology. Millions of innocent men, women and children, since the introduction of Christianity, have been burnt, tortured, fined and imprisoned. What has been the effect of this coercion? To make one half the world fools and the other half hypocrites; to support roguery and error all over the world … The clergy converted the simple teachings of Jesus into an engine for enslaving mankind … to filch wealth and power to themselves. [They], in fact, constitute the real Anti-Christ. —Thomas Jefferson "
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Pardon me, but what, in reality, have these (highly selective) quotations to do with a cheche on a town square or performing The Messiah in a school assembly? ACLU paranoia says any hint of religion - children singing Christmas carols - amounts to the "establishment" of religion. The activities that excite the ACLU to sue, sue, sue cannot be rationally compared to the horrors of the Thirty Years War.

We were a far more overtly religious society when I was growing up, and it did not lead to the parade of horribles spewing out of the ACLU propaganda machine. On the contrary, we have less overt religious activity. (Recall "Blue" laws and Christian prayers every morning in school? Most "thirty somethings" cannot.)

I believe the ACLU is asserting the power to define our way of life, whatever the majority may believe or tolerate. They wish to define our way of life as free FROM religion. I am not religious, but I support the right of the religious to have their beliefs woven into the fabric of public life because, despite the quotations above, I regard relgion as, on balance, a civilizing force that appeals to the better side of human nature. Accepting and respecting all religions, not shutting them away, is "diversity" for which we should strive together.
 
Well Said Yvsa. My Father was Buddhist, my first wife is a Taoist, my current wife is a Musilm. I am a Christian and on behalf of my extended family Merry Christmas to all.
 
Thomas Linton said:
Pardon me, but what, in reality, have these (highly selective) quotations to do with a cheche on a town square or performing The Messiah in a school assembly? .
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Not a lot, but I thought it might stimulate some discussion ;)
 
Thomas Linton said:
I am not religious, but I support the right of the religious to have their beliefs woven into the fabric of public life because, despite the quotations above, I regard relgion as, on balance, a civilizing force that appeals to the better side of human nature. Accepting and respecting all religions, not shutting them away, is "diversity" for which we should strive together.
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I actually agree. It wouldn't bother me to see a Dasein display in the same place as as a nativity scene.

However I think your characterization of the ACLU is off base. Read this:


Following Threat of ACLU of Virginia Lawsuit, Officials to Agree Not to Ban Baptisms in Public Parks
June 3, 2004

RICHMOND, VA -- Under pressure from the American Civil Liberties Union of Virginia, Falmouth Waterside Park Manager Brian Robinson has agreed not to prohibit baptisms in Stafford County, the ACLU announced today.

Robinson also told the ACLU that the Fredericksburg-Stafford Park Authority, which controls access to the public park, expects to issue written policies making it clear that religious groups have the same right to use the park as all other groups.

“This kind of confusion over religious expression in public places is not uncommon,” said ACLU of Virginia Executive Director Kent Willis. “Government officials often seem not to understand that private religious expression is protected in public forums. Afraid of violating separation of church and state by permitting religious activities, they end up obstructing freedom of religion.”

The controversy over baptisms in the park surfaced on Sunday, May 23, when Robinson told Rev. Todd Pyle of the Cornerstone Baptist Church that religious activities were not allowed in the park. Pyle was in the park at the time and had just performed a series of baptisms in the Rappahannock River, which borders the park.

The ACLU of Virginia immediately informed Pyle that he had a constitutional right to conduct baptisms in the park and threatened to challenge in federal court the Park Authority’s ban on religious activities. The ACLU also discovered that the Park Authority does not have written rules governing use of the park.

Pyle decided not to contest the ban, but earlier this week Rev. John H. Reid of the New Generation Evangelical Episcopal Church announced plans to defy park officials by performing a baptism in the park this Sunday. The ACLU again acted, offering assistance to Reid and informing park officials that they must allow the baptisms to proceed.

“The rules are really very simple,” Willis said. “Government officials merely need to make sure that religious activities have the same rights as any other activities in a public park. If swimming is allowed, then baptisms must be allowed. If groups can gather for sports or cultural activities, then groups can gather for religious ceremonies.”

“The key to avoiding these kinds of problems is to have reasonable written rules regarding the use of the park and to apply those rules equally to all users, whether their activities are secular or religious,” he added. “We have offered to help park officials write those rules.”
 
Bob W said:
I'm not offended by groups or individuals celebrating whatever holidays they wish. I am offended by them using public/government/taxpayer resources and facilities to do it. I am even more offended by the use public schools and school-sponsored events to brainwash young children into following a particular religion.

There has never been a law to remove a nativity scene from a churchyard. There has never been a government crackdown on church choirs singing religious-oriented holiday songs. And with strict enforcement of "Seperation of Church and State" hopefully there never will.

Just thought I'd give a view from "the other side."

Best Wishes and Happy Holidays to Everyone,
-Bob
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dude the enviromental folks it is a religon it is nature worship look Ihave no problem protecting land water sea ect. But if you don't want religon in schools than it needs to be equal even with the evelotion crowd it says God does not exist and we Christains beleive in the Big bang to God said (let there be light and bang there it was) We also beleive we came from the dirt God said he formed man from the dust of the earth. but there 's no such thing as evelotion.
just my 2 cent :D
I don't justify or judge others for there belief just want my right as a Christain to be and do or practice publicly or privatly what I wish my faith harms no one and me stating the princibles of my faith has not killed blown up or decapitated anyone . :D :rolleyes: :footinmou did I say that
 
Blonds 1st. said:
dude the enviromental folks it is a religon it is nature worship look Ihave no problem protecting land water sea ect. But if you don't want religon in schools than it needs to be equal even with the evelotion crowd it says God does not exist and we Christains beleive in the Big bang to God said (let there be light and bang there it was) We also beleive we came from the dirt God said he formed man from the dust of the earth. but there 's no such thing as evelotion.
just my 2 cent :D
I don't justify or judge others for there belief just want my right as a Christain to be and do or practice publicly or privatly what I wish my faith harms no one and me stating the princibles of my faith has not killed blown up or decapitated anyone . :D :rolleyes: :footinmou did I say that
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crusades
salem witch trials

i as a Christian understand that blood has been spilt in the name my religion too by those who use fanatism to control the masses for their own selfish purposes.
 
the princibles of my faith has not killed blown up or decapitated anyone .
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I'm guessing you don't study history much. In addition to the historic events mentioned by Dave Hahn, there are more recent and ongoing activities perpetuated by your fellow believers. The destruction of native cultures and religions in Africa and South America, forced Christianization of Native Americans, and one particular denomination's church-wide coverup of pedophiles.

I don't hold it against you personally though. :)

With billions of people on the planet, seperated into thousands or tens-of-thousands of various religions and sects, everyone would get along better if we took George Carlin's advice, "Keep thy religion to thyself."

-Bob
 
Now, now, the crusades were the will of the european monarchies.

the salem witch trials had as much to do with birth control as they did religion.

If you want to have a word to use as the source of all this craziness, it's "Culture."

Not good, not bad, it just IS.

Living populations are under pressure and create their own pressures. Social/survival pressures.

Pressure. It's a big word.
 
I believe all protestations and demonstrations of differing faiths have a place. I don't care if there is a 'religious row' in the public center of town. And I felt the same when I was an atheist. I'm glad I live in a society. What seems insane is to remove all because of exagerated fear of giving offense to a few. When has the Hanuka (sic) ever offended me? Or the Koran read to me by a Moslem neighbor? I don't get it. We are told no public funds should be spent on religion because it is coersive. What about Gay Pride day? Religion is a belief system deserving of the same attention as other belief systems. That the State should select none above another does not mean we cannot celebrate various holidays together.

Let's just remove all Special Days from our Calenders, because someone will resent some issue or another. I'm not that fond of Earth Day- please remove it. And Groundhog day- cut it out.

Are we Living Beings in a diverse society or?

There is no way to make life 'fair'. Not a Constitution or Bill of Rights can do that. But tolerance begins in each of us.


munk
 
perhaps a mandatory two hours daily of slopping hogs and picking cotton would change everybody's priorities concerning such matters.
 
I'm guessing you don't study history much. In addition to the historic events mentioned by Dave Hahn, there are more recent and ongoing activities perpetuated by your fellow believers. The destruction of native cultures and religions in Africa and South America, forced Christianization of Native Americans, and one particular denomination's church-wide coverup of pedophiles >>>>>>>

-Bob W to another poster

This sounds pretty logical until you remember enough history to know that almost all the European Americans were Christians. So, you could also conclude they all drank milk and that was the common trait. Yes, the disenfranchisement of the native peoples was well intentioned, and it was WRONG. But it was done for not only "christian' goals, but a larger goal of wanting to simply settle the minority into the larger culture. This same pattern has been repeated throughout the history of Men whenever a technologically advanced (and militarily) civilization encounters and engulfs a smaller less sophisticated group. It is not persuasive to say this is 'christian trait of corecision' (quotes mine) or "your fellow believers" Bob's quotes: it is a trait of human beings, regardless of faith.
What's ironic is that people thinking they were doing 'good' did this to Native Americans, and by the philosophy of their times, they were.

Which makes it exactly like the forced removal of culure and religion from public places today.

How is it different? Many of my NDN friends have to go to Canada to see how their dances and language and social and religious traditions should be practised; few here still know. It was wrong a hundred years ago to do this to them, and just as wrong as to take Christmas away today from most of us.
You can justify this by a popular and painfully forced interpretation of the Constitution regarding seperation of Church and State, or for any other logical and high sounding motive. The effect though, is what we did to the ndns we continue to do to each other, and whether we are Wiccans, Moslems, Christians or Buddhists has almost nothing to do with it. We are humans making the same mistakes of pride.

That is the real common denominator.

munk
 
Originally Posted by Thomas Linton
I am not religious, but I support the right of the religious to have their beliefs woven into the fabric of public life because, despite the quotations above, I regard relgion as, on balance, a civilizing force that appeals to the better side of human nature. Accepting and respecting all religions, not shutting them away, is "diversity" for which we should strive together.



I actually agree. It wouldn't bother me to see a Dasein display in the same place as as a nativity scene >> Hollow

This is almost exactly what I heard Tom Wolfe saying on TV the other night. He went on to say he did not think the expansion of the West and settling of the Continent could have happened without strong religious beliefs. He thinks this is still an advantage America holds over secular Europe.


munk
 
Munk,
I can sense that you are passionate about this subject, but You guessed wrong, I have done all of those historicalstudies and gone beyond it.

You and Dave are superficially correct, but in the meat of those historical examples like the salem witch trials and the crusades, religion really had little to do with it.

One of the reasons it appears so is because, in those days, governments used the chruch as their identity, their power base, it was just a name. Just like penzoil stickers on a race car. Pennzoil didnt win the race, and hell, there may not have actually been any pennzoil in the car.

For examples in the modern world, look at Black Political leaders in America.
Can you name one that doesnt have the word "reverend" in front of his name?
Do you really think those men are preachers first and politicians second?
Do you think they live in crappy little houses and give away everything they have to alleviate the sufferings of the poor?
 
Europeans went into those lands with public support because they projected a moral high ground of civilizing and Christianizing. These things went hand in hand. And they were both an effective mask to cover what was really going on in almost all cases: power and profit. Are Christians the only ones who did this type of thing? No. But they were in a position to do it on a grand scale and they sure did it. There is no perspective that can lessen that.

To me, separation of church and state is important because acting religious is an extremely effective way for leaders to get the populace to support things that are obviously immoral.
 
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