O1, again

Now that is nice, Fox! While I like an etched finish, I LOVE it when I see the transition brought out that dramatically via polishing.

Part of why I raised the question about the 'differences" is that to me the hamon is a very unique art form with cultural antecedents that tend to get lost in our westenized vernacular and practice. It goes way beyond "clay-coating" for them. The fact that they have an entire vocabulary regarding the form tells me they have an appreciation of it much like the differentiation of the many forms of precipitated water the northern NA native culture or Lapps have which most lump together as "snow". The shape of the line, the little subtleties of coloration, are beyond my knowledge but I know there are those who devote themselves entirely to just those aspects.

I do not say this to denigrate what we call "hamon". I just wonder what a Japanese master would say regarding our somewhat looser use of their word??? :confused:
 
bladsmth said:
AwP - Mine shows 600.It is close to the "0" and looks like an "8".
Click to expand...


Hmm, when I get my face right up to the screen I see you're right. Even being pretty close it still looks like an 8 even after I saw it was a 6... maybe I need a bigger screen. :(
 
Steve - We've had this conversation before.If you are heating it in the forge (for a few seconds?) you don't really know what the heating of the steel is,- do you? Get a good HT oven,put your blade in for the 5-10 minutes required,and quench .Then you will have an idea of what has been happening to your temper line (or not happening to it).Forge tempering is an acquired skill.It takes lots of failures to recognize the successes.
Stacy
 
Steve,I just took a look at your "secrets of...." post.I think part of your problem is not covering enough of the blade and spine with clay.You have to have a true insulating layer to keep the heat in the steel.Try more clay,and farther down the blade.Generally,the true hamon is up under the clay a bit,not at the edge of the clay.That area is usually a scale line.
 
Stacy, I'm confusing you with too many steels! The O1 has been the only thing that has been a problem for me. The pictures you're talking about are 1095 blades and the hamon always comes out nicely on those, so that's not a problem. I think someone clued me into the problem in this post: that if O1 cools within 10 seconds of whatever, it will harden. I'm used to 1084 and 1095, which have to quench really quickly. As stated, the latest O1 blade I made hardened and is seeming to perform well, but it just didn't produce a temper line where I expected it, but that's because of the way I quenched it, I think (whole blade into the quenching medium).

I contacted several knifemakers who use lots of O1 and none of them use the soak method you mentioned. They all bring to critical and edge quench right away.
 
Chiro75 said:
I think someone clued me into the problem in this post: that if O1 cools within 10 seconds of whatever, it will harden.
Click to expand...

The TTT curve clued you into that, but you probably didn't look at it or try to understand it. Raker interpreted it for you, so it is his post that you must be refering to. Other than that I refer you to my post above.

I really think you are taking the heat treating process to lightly and are just looking for the quick and easy way out. It is great to ask questions to get help, but it is more important to learn things for yourself. There are volumes of information written about heat treating and all you have to do is go to the library and look at it. If you are selling knives you have a vested interest into fully understanding all you can about heat treating the steels that you use and the effect it has on them.

Just my $0.02
 
The TTT curve clued you into that, but you probably didn't look at it or try to understand it.
Click to expand...
How'd you guess? :rolleyes:

Sean, I appreciate the pursuit of knowledge, etc, but I also understand the value of not reinventing the wheel. When well-established makers say "this is how I do it. It works and I've been doing it on tons of knives for years and not ever had problems..." it makes me wonder why I'd go back to college for a metallurgy degree when I can just do what he does. Maybe that sounds lazy, but that's the real world. In this case, on the one hand a lot of people are speaking theory, and on the other hand, no one I've asked about O1 actually does it that way in practice, so I don't know what to do. If O1 requires precision soaking for x minutes and etc why is it recommended as a steel for beginners? And why are people who don't follow that procedure doing okay with their knives?
 
Alright, in the pursuit of knowledge I looked at the TTT diagram you posted and it means nothing to me. I looked at your post on reading TTT diagrams and your link doesn't work, either, so now I'm double-screwed. I can tell that the first curve toward the left side of the diagram looks like what is happening when I heat/quench, and the second curve with the RC values (and corresponding #'s of hours) must be what happens during tempering basically showing "if you want this hardness, temper at this temperature for x amount of time." I get that, so, for that left part of the diagram, how do I interpret it?
 
Laredo,
I lifted the chart to my files at home for future reference. I have the one for 52100 and that is what I use. There was a short period of time when I found out that they made flat steel for knives that I used a lot of the O1.
Chiro,
I understand your not wanting to re invent the wheel. There is enough knowldege and misinformation on any of the forums to make it worth while to do a little of your own research. The research is not to invent the wheel but to make sure the source of information is credible. There was a poster on one of the forums that lived a long ways from most knife makers. He had read the book on how to make high performance knives and was asking questions left and right, persuing the knowledge that would enable him to make the best knife in the world. I sometimes wanted to just go to his shop and show him what I knew to help him out. His problem was that he didn't know who to listen to. Fact or fiction, How hot is too hot?? Quench once, or 5 times. I finally figured that maybe he didn't spend enough time trying to find out for himself.
The best quote that I have ever heard was from my Father. He said, "to always consider your source of information". There are many good answers to your question in this thread. You need to reread and understand what was said. I read a "How-to" book on making knives when I started and learned a little every time I read it.
On soaking steel according to the books. If you will notice, that time is for a one inch thickness. That is because the center takes longer to heat up. Also the reason that when making damascus that there needs to be a soak time to ensure a complete weld. Actually, 5160 is the most recommended steel that I have heard. It has a 5 second nose and doesn't have a lot of elements in it that may or may not enhance the performance of the knife made by a beginner. A lot of people make good knives from the O1, they may also be able to make them better if they tweak their heat treat for a specific use. I heat treated the first knives I made but they won't hold a candle to the ones I make now. At that time, that was the best that I could do and it was still better than some.
 
Ray, makes sense. So, how do I read this thing. The idea of buying a metallurgy textbook curls my nose hairs! :D Really I want O1 for pretty much one reason only: folders. And I pretty much want to through-harden it, anyway, I just thought I'd have a little fun with it first. Lots of fun this has turned out to be! :rolleyes: :D
 
Clay coating sucks with o1, save it for the 10 xx steels. temper line will stand out with a edge quench using a torch. call me for more spicifics. :cool:
 
The thing that would interest me is the temperature that it becomes non magnetic, critical temp., the time you have to cool it to about 1000 degress, 10 seconds, the point in temperature it starts to form martinsite, about 400 degrees, and the point it completes the transformation of martinsite, just below 200 degrees.
Hardness is tested with a file. If it skates, its good. Temper at 375 degrees the first time. Do the brass rod test or use the knife for a while to see how it holds up to your normal use. If it chips, temper it again at an additional 25 degrees and retest your blade. Continue to do this till you have the hardness you desire in your using knife. If you have an heat treat oven, set it to 1500 degrees and when it reaches that temperature, wait about one minute and take it out and quench it. If you don't, use a torch and a magnet to heat it up. Use most anything for a quenchant but hot (150 to 300 degrees) oil will work without to much trouble. The O in O1 stands for oil quench. For the small blades, I have differentially heat treated them but for their size, I now just harden the whole blade.
One of the reasons that I used the O1 was that I could get it precision ground in most any thickness I wanted for the knives I made. The surface grinder eliminated the need to buy precision ground steel.
 
Chiro75 said:
How'd you guess? :rolleyes:

Sean, I appreciate the pursuit of knowledge, etc, but I also understand the value of not reinventing the wheel. When well-established makers say "this is how I do it. It works and I've been doing it on tons of knives for years and not ever had problems..." it makes me wonder why I'd go back to college for a metallurgy degree when I can just do what he does...
Click to expand...

My good freind Ray Kirk probably said this much better that I can, but the tendency for so many to take the words of "well-established makers" as gospel has led to the stagnation (and sometimes going backwards) of knifemaking as a whole. In the words of one of my personal heros "trust but verify!".

Don't think of it as reinventing the wheel, but more like improving on the design, mankind has come from simple stone circle to the high tech rubber used on formula 1 cars, not by just doing it like old Trog, but by continually working with the most advanced knowledge. The folks at Goodyear didn't go to the jungle natives much after figuring out how to vulcanize, they moved on to the labs.

Quite often established makers, do things the way they do, not because of the benefits to the steel, but in consideration to the tools they use. Soak times are irrelevent in a forge fire; you need to get that steel quenched before something goes wrong. After I got the tools to do a proper soak, I started paying closer attention to those soak time numbers. I have been working O1 for a few years myself, and if you have the ability to hold below 1500F. for extended soaks, the benefits are very remarkable. There are tons of carbides that we cannot take advantage of until that is done. HRC goes to maximum and tempering takes a bit more effort but is well worth it.

Please don't limit yourself, I have been to the mountain and I have seen the other side, and I am here to tell you that many of the famous wise men of knifemaking have been steering us wrong for some time. Those metallurgy books don't have a hidden agenda, John Doe "bladesmith extraordinare" does! Those books don't have an ego, but I do. So don't just take my word for it, crack some books and try to prove me right or wrong, that is what I did and my knifemaking has forever changed.

A few of us metallurgically-bent makers once noticed something that could be used as a rule of thumb on sources of information in print- the more famous the knifemaker, the more his information needs to be verified! This is true for a couple of good reasons:

1. B.S. sells! True metallurgical theory and practice is BORING, believe me, it is a dry read. But hocus pocus, secret recipies, magic hammer blows, and voodoo esoteric gibberish are fascinating to most folks. So it sells more blades and gets more ink.

2. The more famous and respected the maker, the less likely their completely flawed theories and practices are to be questioned. The worst thing that ever happened for the propogation of bad information is the "MS" stamp. There are so many folks who have assumed that what I say must be true because of my stamp- NONSENSE! It is because of this attitude that my statements must be verified even more. I invite this, as I am completely confident that science will rienforce my positions, not threaten them. It makes me look even better when somebody opens a book by E. Bain and says "hmm.. it appears Kevin was right" :D ;)


P.S. And by the way, that "MS" looks good on you Ray. Ray is one ms that won't just rest on his laurels, I am sure you can verify him as well ;) .
 
Kevin R. Cashen said:
2. The more famous and respected the maker, the less likely their completely flawed theories and practices are to be questioned. The worst thing that ever happened for the propogation of bad information is the "MS" stamp. There are so many folks who have assumed that what I say must be true because of my stamp- NONSENSE! It is because of this attitude that my statements must be verified even more. I invite this, as I am completely confident that science will rienforce my positions, not threaten them. It makes me look even better when somebody opens a book by E. Bain and says "hmm.. it appears Kevin was right" :D
Click to expand...

Another thing that "Your" MS stamp stands for is "Makes Sense".

Thank you Mr. Cashen. I like your attitude.

Robert
 
Kevin Cashen, those be sage words and I hope they reach a lot of the makers here far beyond Chiro alone. I sorta wish Kim hadn't given Steve the answer so easy; the information was all here if he'd have only "listened" carefully and I told him so when I asked him how he heated his steel. It was a hint he apparently disregarded.

Steve, I sorta apologize for using you as the whipping boy for what I'm gonna say, but there's people reading here who need a kick in the arse to grow. There is way too much of a trend to learn only what's necessary, not understanding the process but seeking only the specifics essential to achieve a short term goal, which is often just getting a hunk of sharp steel one can get some payback for, regardless of whether it's the best that they could do or not.

There's an old saying I don't accurately remember but can paraphrase as, "Give a man a loaf of bread and he can feed himself today. Give him corn and a book on how to farm and he can feed himself forever."

I'd liken this to the guy who needs to drill an 1/8" hole so he buys only 1/8" drill bits forever. When the time comes there's need for a 3/16" hole, they're screwed if Home Depot isn't open. So, they decide they'll only do things that can be done with an 1/8" hole from now on. :(

I threw out a student and it cost me a friendship afew years ago. He started out saying he wanted to learn knifemaking. He'd been after me for years, so when I retired I invited him in and he was here almost daily for a year. What he really wanted to learn was the absolute minimum necessary to make a knife he could try and sell. I first taught him how to make a slab-handled hollow grind hunter and it turned out pretty good, because I took over at every juncture and corrected his mistakes when it got "hard". I was dismayed when he went out and sold it as his "first knife", and the $75 was more important to him than the symbol. I kept trying to teach him things, saying "why not lemme show you tang tapering on this one," or whatever. He didn't wanna learn any more, just turn out those butt-ugly things he thought was the minimum effort he could make and still sell something. He never did learn how to correct the most simple mistake, and his knives got worse because I wouldn't hold his hand. It got to the point where every dink, he'd take $5 off and start wondering who he could push it on mistakes and all. Eventually, I tired of that "non-seeker" attitude and booted him, cuz he was only in it for a few bucks, not even any pride in artisanship. I told him he either starts learning more or we were done. He mouthed back he didn't need to learn anymore. I bagged his crap up and told him it was out on the porch for pickup.

I am a bit of a purist about this: I like to see knifemakers who thirst for knowing more, who constantly want to extend their skills and knowledge. Who want to master a craft, not remain a task-oriented technician who can do something specific but not understand the why enough to apply the knowledge to similar but different situations.

Now, I fully understand there is room for both kinds of makers, but I hold those who pursue it as a "seeker" in much higher regard.

Steve, this wasn't exactly directed at you, but this afforded me an opportunity to say something that's been heavy on my mind here, lately. I'm sure I'm gonna get some flak for this, but I think it's a sufficiently important point that it needs be mentioned occasionally. I'm sorry to probably hurt some feelings, but I've got big enough shoulders that if even one person starts thinking a little different, it's worth the pain.

Rant off. ;) Have a good day, folks. :)
 
Fitzo, I agree and I can take it. I have thick skin. ;) Unfortunately there seems to be a significant discrepency in what the metallurgy books say and what is practiced/applied in knifemaking. That TTT diagram Sean posted was for a 1" thick piece of O1. What about a 3/16" thick piece that is flat ground? Or flat ground 1/8" thick? Does it still need to be soaked to get a consistent temp all the way through, or would a soak of a minute be more than enough? These are the unanswered questions...

I'm having trouble quoting right now, so try to follow this without your words in front... As far as quality/best you can do, I make the best knives I know how to make. As I know more, my quality will get better. I'm sure there isn't a single person who has ever made more than a few knives who doesn't produce better stuff year after year as knowledge and skill grows. If I cut corners it's because I don't know I'm cutting corners to begin with!

I totally get what you're saying and appreciate your opinion. I can make a decent knife. I've been using 1084 and 1095 long enough that it's hard for me to wrap my head around different steels. I can't conceptualize how/why O1 would be so different. I can do a good job (perfect, no) on 1095, clay heat treated, etc, but that's what I do a lot of, so to go to O1 and have what I consider trouble (which, actually was a problem with my method, not the finished product) is frustrating. Now I understand that O1 quenches totally different from 1095, so there's the answer.
 
Steve, it's not just about getting the temperature consistent. Don't forget your chemistry. Many things are rate phenomena. It's not a matter of just reaching temperature, but of being at that temp long enough for certain chemistry to happen. Kevin just told you that about carbide dissolution. A colloquial example would be boiling pasta. Just because it gets up to 212F doesn't mean it's hydrated yet. It takes time. Sure, one can eat hot, hard spaghetti but it's a helluva lot better when it's cooked right.

For starters here, learn what chromium does when you add it to steel. It'll bring on a light bulb in your head. Understand O-1 and it will make you a better manipulator of plain carbon, too. Then understand vanadium. Just because it's not in your steel doesn't mean that won't teach you something to better your chosen metal.

I'm glad you want to keep learning, and plan on continuing to learn. Learn more than just what you need to know for the task at hand. Makes for a better knifemaker in the long run.

Good passage on your journey..... :)
 
Kevin,
Thanks for the kind words and I am thankful that our paths have crossed many times.
The first book I had was by David Boye on knife making. He hit it on the head when he said to use up all of one "batch" saw blade and get the heat treat right for that one. When you change saw blades, you change batches and it will be close but not the same. That has stuck with me and even Ed Fowler finally quit using all the different ball beariings and got on the "one batch" band wagon.

Chiro,
generally you can figure the 1/8" material to be soaked about 1/8th the time. This is what I was taught and you can experiment with a little less and a little more as you go along. All the information that I have learned has taken be about 16 years and that is with a lot of questions being asked of men I respected in the field of knives. It took a long time to even understand what some of them were talking about but there are some things that have to be understood before we can understand the rest. It is definitely a journey and one to be enjoyed and not hurried through. Keep notes, you will need them later as the mind tends to dwell on only what interests us at the present time.
 
Chiro75 said:
Now I understand that O1 quenches totally different from 1095, so there's the answer.
Click to expand...

With the understanding that O1 is radically different from the steels you have used before surely there is some curiosity to know why? To step on the road of understanding that particular "why" is to begin to understand the fundamentals of how alloying elements affect steel and the basic principles of the heat treatment process itself. You don't need to go to school to become a metallurgist, but learning the basics of the science behind what is happening should be a natural outgrowth of the desire to make knives in the first place. Every time I open one of my texts, something I read in a forum or something I read in the same text six months ago suddenly becomes clear while at the same time new questions arise. This forms the perfect synthesis of hands on observation from actually making knives and knowledge of the process itself which allows you to interpret (and manipulate) that same process.

Thanks for this thread, it has reminded me that I need to both make more blades and read and re-read the books I've been neglecting of late. :)
 
Eloquently put, Guy. Concise and meaningful and advice only a fool would ignore. ;)
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top