O1, again

I thought I was done with chemistry after I got my degree in it! :rolleyes: Unfortunately we were too busy synthesizing aspirin and extracting a few drops of clove oil from a pound of cloves to talk about stuff that would apply to making kickass knives! :rolleyes: :grumpy:

Frankly, I read enough books for my profession. I come here for YOU guys to read the books and tell me Cliff Notes version! "Hey, nerd, where's my homework!?" :D
 
What happens, though, Steve, if people decide they're tired of doing your homework for you and either won't answer you at all or answer cryptically like I did, hoping to inspire your synapses to fire?

You'll notice I don't usually respond to your queries, not because I can't but because I think mostly it's danged well something you should dig up for yourself. This idea of thinking it's easy to just ask on a forum and see if someone will spend their time educating you is sort of selfish, in a manner of speaking, after a certain point. Their time is as valuable to them as yours to you. It preys on people's natural inclination to help. I think the plethora of info out there nowadays has proliferated laziness and too much of an expectation for instant gratification. Scrap buckets aren't meant to be the size of thimbles for a knifemaker.

TANSTAAFL.
 
Chiro75 said:
That TTT diagram Sean posted was for a 1" thick piece of O1.
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Where did you get that from? TTT curves are independant of the thickness of the steel or what you quench it in. It is based on Time and Temperature.

All I know is that I need to take lessons from Kevin, Fitzo, and Guy on how to write more effectively. I should have paid more attention during English class. :)
 
Laredo7mm said:
All I know is that I need to take lessons from Kevin, Fitzo, and Guy on how to write more effectively. I should have paid more attention during English class. :)
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I hope you will forgive me playing at your expense, Sean.... :D

There used to be one of those "office jokes" hang in a breakroom at work, among all us dork scientists;

"I used to be dumb

Then I goed to kollege

Now I are an eng-i-neeeer."

Walking the line for so many years between the chemists and ChemE's, I derived great pleasure out of their mutual disdain for the other... ;)

Of course, I have great respect for engineering, so this was just an attempt at levity after my extended seriousness. :p
 
Dangit. Someone on email told me that was for 1" piece of steel. :grumpy:

So, is there a dummy course in how to read/interpret the left side of that curve? I tried your link, Sean, and it wasn't up anymore. Can you repost it/email it to me or point me in the right direction on interpreting the info? I'd like to avoid buying big heavy books if at all possible, you know?

So, now we have two camps: soak, don't soak. Is there a way to soak effectively in a small forge like mine (propane Paint Can Forge), or should I not bother trying because I'll burn the steel. What are the noticeable effects of soaking v not soaking? Will Batman get out of the cave or will Robin perish under the Penguin's evil plan?
 
Foghorn Legghorn said; "Son, I keep pitching 'em high and you keep swingin' low."

Steve, you aren't catching on because you're trying to problem solve without a firm understanding of the basics.

Several people have done their dangedest to get you to quit being either dense or lazy, whichever it actually is. You keep coming across like all you're willing to do is seek the easy path.

Lemme ask you a question: if you were paying someone to do your HT wouldn't you expect the person to have more than the minimal knowledge in order to deal with outliers? Well, your customers are paying you for the same level of presumption of knowledge.

I'm gonna leave you alone because I've tried all I care to. I hope someone else has gotten something out of the lessons in this thread besides the fact that I'm an AH.

My best advice to you is that if you're unwilling to buy a book but have the energy to do a Google on "Ferrous Metallurgy" that you do so and start the learning process before you fire up the forge again. Your day has the same 24 hours as everyone else, they shouldn't be asked to do the search for you.

Now, I have to say I'm glad you're thick skinned, because I really don't like being mean. That said, don't allow the thick part to apply to your head.

Good luck.....
 
chiro, sent you an email .Read it and learn !!.......The paper I sent is from an Ohio State Metallurgy course ,if anyone wants it send me your email address.[they changed the URL ,I don't know the new one]
 
Here is the link again on "how to read ttt curves":

http://webpages.charter.net/laredo7mm/TTTCurves.pdf

I took it down because it sucks up alot of the limited space I have on my ISP. Well I guess I could upload it to my website and make you all go there, but I am nice (sometimes), I will spare you all the chore of digging though my knife pictures to find the info. ;)

I will probably only leave it there for a couple of days, so look quick. :p

Chiro- Just check out the Public Library. I am sure they will have tons of metallurgy books, and I know Holland has a library, just don't wear your wooden shoes in there. :D
 
I checked out a couple of books on metallurgy from the public library, the best one by an author named Moniz.

Here, I found it on amazon.com:

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/t...002-3477387-7288067?v=glance&s=books&n=507846

looks like you can even buy it used for real cheap.

A couple of chapters out of these metallurgy textbooks will be most useful to you, since some of it is non-ferrous metallurgy. It's only a couple of hours reading, so don't be discouraged by thinking you will have to review the contents of an entire course by picking up one of these books.

Later on you can try to find journal articles on heat treating to cover extremely specific topics.
 
Mete, got it, thanks!

Sean, link works, thanks! Wishing I had faster Internet right about now!

Fitzo, you have a unique way of getting your point across, but I agree. What's frustrating is that I'm trying to discuss a discrepency between what is in the textbook (which, thanks to these links I'll now be able to partially understand), what is practiced by some (soaking) and what is practiced by many (bring to critical, immediate quench) and what is "right" or what is "wrong." If I sit and read all my little knifemaking books, then I get criticized for not really walking the walk, so damned if I do, damned if I don't.
 
Steve, "things are tough all over". :D

While you may find it painful, there is a whole lot of information in this thread that can lead to understandings that make one a better knifemaker if you pursue it beyond the "hints" here. It will take more study. How good a knifemaker you want to become is certainly up to you. That said, IMO there is a certain level of competency that should be self-obligated if one is going to accept money for their work.

If you have the initiative to pursue knowledge from the hints that have been given here, you will have taken a good step to being a better knifemaker. That choice is totally up to you and not for me to decide.

What I have tried to do here is batter you into taking that step. Consider it a gift, no charge! ;)

There is information on several levels in this thread. Some are geared towards solving your initial query. Some address other aspects of HT and O-1, things to make you wonder and go out and learn. My responses were intended to get you to want to think for yourself and want to learn more to better your craft.

I urge you to take some time to study. Start at the basics and create a foundation. One has to learn the alphabet before one writes sonnets....

Best wishes....
 
Consider it a gift, no charge!
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Hey, with friends like you, who needs enemies! :p Kidding. I appreciate your efforts and you're absolutely right that good knifemaking is as much a knowledge pursuit as it is an applied skill pursuit. Thanks for the kick in the pants. You can look forward to questions on my homework assignment from Sean and Mete, so I hope you're ready! :D
 
Steve,
Also, you need to try new things. Take notes and if knife x didnt work out dont repeat the equation for knife y because that wont work either.

Break knives, send them off for RC testing, do cut testing on your own. You have the advantage of making small knives. If your having a hard time with 3" range you wont be able to ht a 8" knife for sure.

Try to over heat them and learn to read what the etching tells you like I have said before. That is the only way to read the heat treat result that I know of.

I would suggest stop selling untill you do alot of testing to make sure what your making is worth the time to sell it. A bad ht on a finished knife isnt worth the 5 dollars to ship it in my opinion.

I would recomend not worring so much about the hammond and focus on the cutting ability first.

Thats just my suggestions, man to man.
 
I haven't sold any of the O1 knives. The 1095 ones are solid. &The only reason I clay coated the O1 was to control the heat because of the way I quench (whole blade in) which if the TTT graph was interpreted right, doesn't work because O1 hardens way differently from 1095. LIke I said, the latest O1 wharnie hardened, and it kicks butt on brass rod tests, but it didn't get the temper line I expected, but that's because it through-hardened, which I understand now. When I experiment with a new steel, which is always a little rough, I end up with a few keepers to call my own. I had a few orders for O1 knives after I let it be known I was adding it as a steel and turned them away because it wasn't working out the way I expected. Reputation is everything, and I don't NEED to sell any of these knives, so if I can't do it right I'm not going to sell them, no worries about that. Thanks, Brian!
 
OKay, getting back to the TTT diagram, let's see real quick if I have the gist of it. Those notes you guys sent are going to take a while, assuming I can stay awake through it! Anyway, if I read right, when talking about the curve on the left of the diagram, the top of the curve is basically the temperature we want to take the knife to, the so called critical temp, yes? As the curve comes down and around (the nose of the curve), the time that matches the tip of the nose is the amount of time you have, more or less, to bring the steel from the critical temp to cooled to transform the austenite into martensite (the hard stuff), right? So, for O1, in other words, that means if it cools within about ten seconds in the quench, it will harden, which is how that 10 second numebr got thrown into the discussion.

That also explains why I'm not finding a temper line of any type on my O1 knives, because I am quenching them the same way I quench 1084 and 1095, which is clay coat, dunk the whole thing in ATF/Oil. I would guess this is what is meant by a "shallow" hardening steel. The nose of the diagram must be further to the left, giving you less time to make this crucial transformation, correct? So, I am likely getting a decent hardening of the steel to take place, actually I know I am, and tempering correctly for the RC I want, but the temper line is not there because the portion of the steel under the clay still cooled enough in the ten second period that it hardened all the way, which is what we established already.

So, to get a temper line, (and I'm talking temper line, not hamon) if I want one, on O1 I'll have to change my quench tank setup and make sure the soft area stays out of the oil altogether or it'll harden to some degree. Whew, got it. Now, unfortunately, this business about soak times, carbides, etc is not information that can be gleaned from the TTT diagram, correct?
 
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