Octagon handles history thread

[quinton]

Lets talk for a minuet about Pyramids and about the human fixation on plumb, level and square when we build our dwellings. I have spent a long life connected to the idea of plumb, level and square for construction. But, for the last few years now I have been having some strange thoughts I will share with you. It strikes me odd that nothing else that lives on earth gives a rats ass about plumb, level or square, and they get on just fine on planet earth. Nothing else that lives on earth has to wear shoes or clothes. Nothing else cooks it food. And on and on, I am starting to think we are not from this planet. Please forgive the ramblings of a old man who has spent most of his life in the woods.
Bernie

No other species on earth gets married..

 

[catspa]

The desire for plumb, level and square is kind of a first world anomaly, but it’ll rise in the third world with their standard of living.

Other species don’t have the luxury of wanting things PLS, because they’re spending the majority of their effort (and risk, in some cases) obtaining food and avoiding predators. Somewhere many long times ago, our ancestors invented the 3-legged stool of civilization: fire, agriculture and language. By doing so, they freed up much of our time so we could devote more of our efforts to politics, entertainment and axe handle carving.

With fire, we no longer shiver in the winter snow. Agriculture means we can go without experiencing hunger almost indefinitely (and get fat, if we so choose). And language allows us to argue about axe handle carving with strangers on the internet from great distances. Meanwhile, other species obtain food and avoid predators in much the same way as their ancestors did 12-15,000 years ago (except the ones that get run over crossing the road).

They didn’t invent shoes because they have hooves or claws. They didn’t invent hats because they run too fast and move too vigorously for a hat to stay on their heads. They didn’t invent the internet because they didn’t have Al Gore.

Humans are just lucky, I guess. Except that along with all our advantages, we’re also the species most susceptible, as far as we know, to excessive complexity, superstition and macro-parasitism. Gotta take the good with the bad, no?

Parker

 

[garry3]

Lets talk for a minuet about Pyramids and about the human fixation on plumb, level and square when we build our dwellings. I have spent a long life connected to the idea of plumb, level and square for construction. But, for the last few years now I have been having some strange thoughts I will share with you. It strikes me odd that nothing else that lives on earth gives a rats ass about plumb, level or square, and they get on just fine on planet earth. Nothing else that lives on earth has to wear shoes or clothes. Nothing else cooks it food. And on and on, I am starting to think we are not from this planet. Please forgive the ramblings of a old man who has spent most of his life in the woods.
Bernie

I believe that's why I enjoy building primitive style bows so much. No plumb, level, square, or even tape measure is required, just follow the grain and growth rings as nature made it.
It is freedom.

 

[catspa]

Do you measure the draw weight with a scale?

Parker

 

[Old Axeman]

Garry, I agree. There is a lot of peace and harmony in simple living. My all time favorite three woodworking tools are; axe or hatchet, draw knife, and a carving knife. 50 % of my woodworking time now is spent getting wood to make the project at hand (This was at 100% for most of my working life). But now the other 50 % of my time is spent getting wood that is not acquired for a project at hand. I see a log, stump, board that just "calls to me". I acquire it. I put it where I can study it every time I walk past it. And after a while, it actually tells me what it wants to be. If the wood and I come to an agreement on what it should be, I start planning how to remove the wood that does not belong, because the finished item is already inside the wood. My job is to simply remove the wood and release what is inside. The agreement the wood and I made creates peace and harmony for both of us. I should add that I have some beautiful 12/4 American Black Walnut that I cut on a old Frick circular saw mill I had. That Walnut has followed me all over the US for 60 years and we still do not have a agreement on what it should be. I guess we should hurry this along !

One more thought on working wood. Now, not so much when I was younger and felling a lot of timber, I save a special piece of wood from every tree I cut, and make something from that piece. It lets the tree live on for me.

I used to "carve" structures from logs. These days I very much enjoy carving hafts, bowls, flower vases, spoons, fish, animals and even miniature trees (not lathe turning, even though I have a very old Sears Craftsman Lathe I bought at a garage sale when I was 16 yrs old).

Bernie

 

[Square_peg]

SIMMONS HARDWARE COMPANY 1939

Bob

Octagon scroll end. Be still, my heart.

 

[Square_peg]

Lets talk for a minuet about Pyramids and about the human fixation on plumb, level and square when we build our dwellings. I have spent a long life connected to the idea of plumb, level and square for construction. But, for the last few years now I have been having some strange thoughts I will share with you. It strikes me odd that nothing else that lives on earth gives a rats ass about plumb, level or square, and they get on just fine on planet earth. Nothing else that lives on earth has to wear shoes or clothes. Nothing else cooks it food. And on and on, I am starting to think we are not from this planet. Please forgive the ramblings of a old man who has spent most of his life in the woods.
Bernie

The advantage to building plumb, square and level is that makes more likely that things will fit together. Square sheets of plywood will fit square walls. Square cabinets will fit square and plumb walls. Pre-hung doors and windows will fit square structures. A plumb structure will resist gravity without creating an eccentric load.

 

[catspa]

That’s all true. Square plywood and cabinets (and straight lumber, and many other things) are a result of A powered machinery, B division of labor, and are only useful when there’s C a market of consumers who can afford them.

In places where those elements are lacking, and perhaps the majority are wondering where their next meal is coming from, squareness is a luxury for the wealthy few. Much more important that the roof don’t leak come the monsoons, and that snakes can’t crawl into your hut at night (the big ones, anyway).

Parker

ETA: and even in America, squareness is often approximate. Take a framing square to your nearest inside drywall corner and you’ll see what I mean.

 

[Square_peg]

Apply increasing gravity to these 2 structures. Which will stand the longest? This is why we build plumb.

A pyramid shape or a cone won't suffer from this. Engineering can overcome it at a cost.

 

[garry3]

Do you measure the draw weight with a scale?

Parker

When it's done and the finish has been applied.
Wood has a memory and at some point they will go to someone else, so I mark them with draw length and weight.

This bow was made from a remarkable yew, near as I can tell around a hundred rings per inch. Really small tree, short stave and I figured that knot would go into the nonworking center.
Stave selection is really critical.

 

[garry3]

Garry, I agree. There is a lot of peace and harmony in simple living. My all time favorite three woodworking tools are; axe or hatchet, draw knife, and a carving knife. 50 % of my woodworking time now is spent getting wood to make the project at hand (This was at 100% for most of my working life). But now the other 50 % of my time is spent getting wood that is not acquired for a project at hand. I see a log, stump, board that just "calls to me". I acquire it. I put it where I can study it every time I walk past it. And after a while, it actually tells me what it wants to be. If the wood and I come to an agreement on what it should be, I start planning how to remove the wood that does not belong, because the finished item is already inside the wood. My job is to simply remove the wood and release what is inside. The agreement the wood and I made creates peace and harmony for both of us. I should add that I have some beautiful 12/4 American Black Walnut that I cut on a old Frick circular saw mill I had. That Walnut has followed me all over the US for 60 years and we still do not have a agreement on what it should be. I guess we should hurry this along !

One more thought on working wood. Now, not so much when I was younger and felling a lot of timber, I save a special piece of wood from every tree I cut, and make something from that piece. It lets the tree live on for me.

I used to "carve" structures from logs. These days I very much enjoy carving hafts, bowls, flower vases, spoons, fish, animals and even miniature trees (not lathe turning, even though I have a very old Sears Craftsman Lathe I bought at a garage sale when I was 16 yrs old).

Bernie

Do you notice a difference in using a spoke shave when the wood gets really dry?

I had someone tell me that they do well until the wood gets down around eight percent moisture content but are fine at around eleven percent.
I like spoke shaves but rarely use them because I get too much tear out to easily and I know around eight percent is my dry.

 

[Old Axeman]

I notice a difference in using ANY hand edge tool when the wood gets really dry. I like, and use, spoke shaves almost as much as the draw knives. I usually start with the draw knife, mostly with the bevel down, touching the wood, because the edge will not follow the grain as bad as when you have the bevel up. Then finish with a flat bottom spoke shave. The flat bottom spoke shave accounts for about 95 % of my spoke shave work. I have a bunch of different flat bottom spoke shaves. I think the secret to using spoke shaves is to use one with a open mouth when hogging, or on green wood and to use one with a very closed mouth on dry or curly wood. This has worked for me for may years on tools with a bottom below the edge, like spoke shaves, hand planes, etc.

 

[Brent Halverson]

My personal theory on why axes back in the day were sold with octagonal handles was simple profiteering. It took less labor cost to finish a handle to an octagon than to an oval cross section, so if they could get a customer to buy a handle or axe that took less total labor to produce, they made more money. From an engineering point of view the octagonal handle is not going to be as reliable as an oval cross-section handle for the same reason any stressed member with sharp corners is not as reliable under stress as one free of sharp corners, it is easy for "stress risers" to start in the relatively sharp peaks and points of an octaganol cross-section, they are more vulnerable to damage in rough handling, and a dent or cut can turn into a split or crack. The same reason an oval-section connecting rod or valve-spring wire in a gasoline engine would be more reliable than one with an octagonal cross section.

 

[Old Axeman]

More on spoke shaves. The three brands I like the best for everyday work are: Lie- Nielsen , Veritas, and vintage Stanley. The Stanley # 53 and #54 have a adjustable mouth, the Bailey (Stanley) # 62 is "reversible" so it has two blades that allow you to shave either direction without reversing your hands for squirrely grain and my last favorite is a Stearns # 13 with a adjustable convex/ concave bottom. The #53, #54, #62, and Stearns #13 are rare and expensive if you can find them. I was lucky and inherited mine.

 

[axes of keevil]

To clarify, is your conclusion from that ad that those handles definitely had the grain orientation illustrated below?

I had only ever heard bastard cut to refer to riftsawn boards but thanks for pointing out that the term means something else for rived lumber. The 'best' growth ring orientation recommendation does vary by source. Some old manuals recommend radially oriented handles.

 

[Old Axeman]

Can you be more specific about which "old manuals recommend radially oriented handles" There are a lot of people that have a lot of opinions that dont actually know what they are talking about. I base my opinion about radially oriented grain verses vertical oriented grain for percussion tools, like axes, on the following: original, historic, handle makers catalogs that I have (and I have a lot of them) ; four generations of my family who made their living working in the timber industry, and a life time of making a living using a axe almost every day of my life.

 

[axes of keevil]

Can you be more specific about which "old manuals recommend radially oriented handles" There are a lot of people that have a lot of opinions that dont actually know what they are talking about.

I don't maintain a list of everywhere I've ever encountered it but Dudley Cook's The Ax Book would be one place. The Canada Farmer 1865 has an in depth discussion of axe use, including making rived handles and recommends against tangential handles because they have a tendency to warp to the side. That's the same rationale in the 1989 UN FAO Design Manual on Basic Wood Harvesting Technology.

 

[quinton]

Many generations of my Appalachian ancestors were proud axe men too. They mainly cut white oak tie cuts that were snaked out of the woods to the chipyard with mules to be hewed and sold for outside income. Hewing ties was mainly a wintertime job. The other source of income was from riving white oak 'baccer sticks that were always in demand and used for harvesting and housing burley crops to cure. Every farm had a 'baccer crop, but most farms didn't have white oak timber to make the sticks so they were always in demand and made and sold by the thousands.

An axe was an everyday essential tool on the farm year round. Most of the old outbuildings and barns around here were built with pine poles either notched log cabin style, or pole barn style with each bent pole set on flat rocks for footings, and more pine poles for rafters. About the only sawn lumber was the girts, purlins and boxing. One of my earliest memories of an axe was as a toddler watching my grandmother chop ear corn into wafers at the corncrib to feed the milk cow when she milked her. That was the very day I caught the bug..

But anyhow..
As a young boy, I remember watching many axe handles being made and scraped smooth by my grandfather and other older neighbors. As a young teenager I decided to try my hand at handle making and immediately ran into the age old problem of grain orientation that I had never even given a thought before. I had never heard grain direction ever mentioned by anyone ever, but there it was, plain as day staring me right in the eyes.. I couldn't even begin making the handle that I had put so much thought into without knowing how to orient that darn grain. I thought for a moment about how to resolve my problem and then decided to Google it. That didn't work because the internet hadn't been invented.. I thought about it again and decided that I would mail order An Axe to Grind and read it to see if there were recommendations on grain orientation but quickly realized it hadn't been written yet..

So, I decided to do the next best thing and run out the road to my elderly neighbor's saddle shop and ask him about grain orientation because I had seen him make several axe handles by his shop fireplace over the years while telling logging stories from his younger years. When I got there, he was stuffing the raised quilted top for a Eugene Minihan spring tree saddle he had completely rebuilt from the tree up. I watched him work on that saddle top for a few minutes before the old gentleman raised his head and asked me what I had on my mind. I told him that I had run into a problem that I thought he could answer. I told him that I was fixing to start making a double bit axe handle but realized that I didn't know which way to turn the grain. He then leaned over and spit in the cruddy cuspidor before walking over to the corner of the shop and grabbed his old Flint Edge DB and said just like this whist pointing to its eye, the grain has to run horizontal across the eye like this or otherwise it'll most likely warp and won't give you the chip popping snap. I've never looked back!

 

[Old Axeman]

Quinton great to see you. Good post, great story ! Years ago you and I agreed to disagree on this subject did we not ? So I want to comment on a few points you make. Lets look at your last three sentences . Both of the axes you mention were double bits. A double bit , by design for use , requires a straight handle. A curved wood haft for a axe, or any kind of tool for that mater, creates a major problem with horizontal grain because of runout. Runout is a major cause of haft breakage even with people who make their living using a axe every day. I have inspected thousands of broken hafts in National Park Service and Us Forest Service ranger station fire and trail crew tool caches around the entire USA.

Even riving (splitting) the rough handle blank, the way it should be done, can not help eliminate runout with a curved haft with horizontal grain. And since the only hafts you can buy today are sawn and not split, the way you and I were taught, that means most likely you will have runout even in the straight hafts. Hence, the reason for most broken hafts is horizontal grain.

Does it ALWAYS matter, no in my opinion. Horizontal grain in any haft, on any tool, that is shorter than 20" will probably be OK. And there are some wood hafted tools that the extra flex that horizontal grain provides is useful.

I hope you are still smoking Appalachian pig meat with Appalachian hickory. I sure wish you and I could get together for some of your pig meat and some of my home grown white pineapples !

Bernie

 

[george65]