Off Topic Off Topic (Possibly Controversial)

Rob_Mob

Rob_Mob

Joined
Oct 16, 2013
Messages
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Hey Hogs,

I wanted to get this community’s feedback on something. While this is somewhat of an off topic post — it has some relevance in the knife community. Many of us carry knives with us and have to make split decisions as to what constitutes a justifiable reason to rely on our carry knives in a precarious situation. Please see the video below:

https://www.google.com/amp/amp.star...al/community/fort-worth/article218728710.html

Now I live in California and am surrounded by people that have rather strong ideological proclivities in a particular direction. Now I definitely think it would be counterproductive to focus this discussion on the State and/or the people who live here. I do want to mention that a majority of my social circle strongly hold a different view than me on this issue.

Now I don’t know all the details and I’m sure certain details can make a real difference. However, I’d like to outline my thought process and maybe you guys can help me see if I’m wrong or missing something here.

1. From the get go — let me just say I would have personally handled this quite differently from the start and maybe somewhat differently throughout.

2. My question is not so much a legal one. It’s more philosophical and more so to do with morality/ethics. I recognize we don’t all share the same values and certainly appreciate the differences.

3. My position is that all things considered — when a man feels as though there is a direct threat to his well being or the well being of his family — that man has a right to defend himself and his family.

4. Given my position — I personally think that when someone hyper aggressively approaches you with multiple threats of killing you and your son and after multiple warnings have been calmly and clearly relayed — that it constitutes a justifiable situation to deter an oncoming threat.

5. I’m not arguing In favor of completely offing someone, but I do find it reasonable to use a deterrent force when my proximal space has been invaded while simultaneously receiving threats against me and my son from a hyper aggressive individual who appears irate.

6. While this Is not the focus, do you guys believe the Murder charge is justified? Would you be more okay with a voluntary manslaughter charge?

All things considered — a similar situation could have have happened with a knife. Would love to hear what you guys think!

Cheers!
 
I did not watch the video (I am a wimp and dont like seeing videos of people getting badly hurt or killed) but after reading the story I am of the opinion once the guy pulled his pistol he escalated an arguement to a potentially deadly situation and took his life into his own hands.
 
I saw no justification for the use of deadly force, and no legitimate self-defense. I don't believe for a second that either of them reasonably or actually believed that he needed to shoot the guy to prevent serious bodily harm to himself or anyone else. Unless something happened off camera vastly different from what was shown, murder straight up.
 
JohnTheTexican said:
I saw no justification for the use of deadly force, and no legitimate self-defense. I don't believe for a second that either of them reasonably or actually believed that he needed to shoot the guy to prevent serious bodily harm to himself or anyone else. Unless something happened off camera vastly different from what was shown, murder straight up.
Click to expand...

John, just curious you thoughts on these. What about the repeated threats to kill, the extent of aggression via yelling and intensity, and the continuing to come closer and closer to the dad with the pistol? In my estimation these would all constitute aggressive and threatening behavior.
 
Made a comment that I pulled to avoid pissing anyone off.

In the video I saw 4 people , 2 of which are armed (410 shot gun and a 9mm? ). The 4 people are arguing like drunk teenagers in a high school parking lot.

I’m not sure if the dead guy pulled a weapon or not ? Off camera ?

I would say they are all guilty of instigating a situation that could have been resolved without shooting ( don’t people use their fists anymore? when it’s 2 on 1 why shoot ? Kick his ass ).

The guy who got shot did threaten to kill , multiple times , now he’s dead .

I guess it is what it is .. a bunch a people who proved a point?

I wouldn’t call it murder because the dead guy did threaten to kill the shooters.

I wouldn’t call this self defense either.

I would call the 2 guys with guns pathetic though.. there’s 2 of them ! Kick his ass or let him take the trash ? ( I’m sure there is more to the story .. I’ll stop venting)

The video shows no real reason for 2 grown men to shoot someone multiple times.
 
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OK. Watched what was available on the vid from the cool detachment of the local public library. Lots missing in that vid, and I was obviously not present when the event took place. To catch the mood, escalation points, events occurring out of camera lens, etc. Or previous encounters with the now deceased.

Think luethege, as above, sums up my feelings.

This all looks pretty ridiculous, and unnecessary. I never would have even been standing there arguing with my neighbor while holding a gun in my hand. That close? That confrontational? Over dumped garbage? Didn't even need to bring weapons to this "discussion." With my son standing behind me with a cut down pump resting on his shoulder? Any LEO watching this is probably going to have the same reaction as I did. "What a couple of Yahoos." And shirtless. Oy Vey! They're mostly responsible for this incident. If nothing else than ramping up the "escalation of force" right from the beginning. They should get charged with something pretty serious. An attorney could argue for 1st Deg/Murder because they brought guns to this encounter. And were the aggressors? Based on what I saw. Yes. Will probably get lowered to Manslaughter.

Background:

I used to work in several (non - commissioned) rule enforcement positions as a Federal Park, and a (large, metro) - City Park Ranger. I was also authorized to carry any number of weapons as a US Navy Force Protection Small Arms Team. Have also been CC'd pretty much everyday since 2008. Including right now. Never, ever, been anywhere near this sort of situation. I'm sure these folks could have contacted someone, or agency that could have resolved this dispute with out firearms. Now, one guy's dead, and two others will most likely do some prison time. Over garbage. If your gonna' plug someone, make it worth something.

I may be pretty stupid sometimes when it comes to being attracted to the wrong sort of woman, but pretty cool when it comes to handling confrontations with unreasonable people, and the demonstration and application of deadly force.

Thanks for reading this, and have a great weekend.
 
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JackTheKnifeGuy said:
Originally Wrote a long post venting. Then after I finished, I cooled down and decided to reserve my heated comments.

Prayers sent to the wife and kids.
Click to expand...

This is a safe and non-judgmental place — if you still have it available, I would love to hear your perspective
 
Rob_Mob said:
This is a safe and non-judgmental place — if you still have it available, I would love to hear your perspective
Click to expand...


Heres mostly what my original mostly entails. Remember this is immediately after watching the video so tensions are a little high.


(WARNING, Post includes a somewhat emotional response)


After watching the video Im gonna tell it how I see it.

First and foremost, My heart mourns for the wife and their kids. Her screams echo deep.. Prayers sent to the family.

As for the two..."individuals".. they aren't human. Both sides had hot tempers but those other two guys, they WANTED to use those guns, especially that cocky SOB in the back with the shotgun on his shoulder. They couldn't wait to shoot him. Then it turns into a game of chicken. And the guy isn't going to back down while on video and in the presence of his wife and kids.

They knew this and played him into it by taunting him. Im not saying the husband isn't at fault but there was some serious taunting going on.



Philosophically, I don't think ANY argument is worth the taking of a life. For kids to lose their father because some old timer wanted to play cowboy and be a baddass.

The wife should have cooled off her husband and anytime firearms are presented in an argument, police should be called as well.

As for the two children with no clothes.
Seriously? a pistol and a sawed off? Over a heated argument about trash..?

Lawfully, I guess its not textbook murder..UNFORTUNATELY.
But since they want to play "old west standoff",

If John Wayne himself was there what do you think he'd say it was.



Side note. I saw the new predator film that came out last week. In it the Main characters son asks his dad (who's in the military) if he's a murderer.

The dad replies "Im not a murderer."
Son replies, "But you kill people right?"

Dad says, "Yes I do, but murderers, They're the ones who enjoy it."


Those sack of shits enjoyed it.



End post.
 
Murder plain and simple. If they thought the death threats were valid call the cops, and also they were outside in a public area and they weren't backed against a wall , you can't tell an unarmed person that if you come within 3 feet of me I will shoot you. They could have easily left and went about their business.
 
Very interesting so far and great points being made.

I agree that things should have been handled differently in the lead up. However, I’m somewhat surprised that no one so far thinks that the aggressive guy was creating a dangerous situation by threatening to kill and by testing the father with the pistol. When the father warns him not to encroach, and then the guy encroaches anyway — isn’t that serious? I’m not advocating in favor of killing, but law enforcement and military personnel use a similar rubric before determining that lethal force is justified.
 
nicksison said:
Murder plain and simple. If they thought the death threats were valid call the cops, and also they were outside in a public area and they weren't backed against a wall , you can't tell an unarmed person that if you come within 3 feet of me I will shoot you. They could have easily left and went about their business.
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Not to be argumentative but in a “stand your ground state” a person isn’t required to retreat, and even being closely confronted can justify use of deadly force. Im not attempting to defend any of the people in the video, I’m just saying it varies greatly from state to state. In Alabama where I was born a person can use deadly force to stop a person from burglarizing their car.

“A person is justified in using deadly physical force if they believe the other person is:

  • About to use unlawful deadly physical force.
  • A burglar about to use physical force.
  • Engaged in kidnapping, assault, robbery, or rape.
  • Unlawfully and forcefully entering a home or car, or attempting to remove a person against their will. (There are exceptions for people who used to live there and are under no injunctions or domestic protection orders.)
  • Breaking into a nuclear power plant.”
Nuclear Power Plant:eek:
Roll Tide!
 
drift draft said:
Not to be argumentative but in a “stand your ground state” a person isn’t required to retreat, and even being closely confronted can justify use of deadly force. Im not attempting to defend any of the people in the video, I’m just saying it varies greatly from state to state. In Alabama where I was born a person can use deadly force to stop a person from burglarizing their car.

“A person is justified in using deadly physical force if they believe the other person is:

  • About to use unlawful deadly physical force.
  • A burglar about to use physical force.
  • Engaged in kidnapping, assault, robbery, or rape.
  • Unlawfully and forcefully entering a home or car, or attempting to remove a person against their will. (There are exceptions for people who used to live there and are under no injunctions or domestic protection orders.)
  • Breaking into a nuclear power plant.”
Nuclear Power Plant:eek:
Roll Tide!
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Stand your ground was the first thing that crossed my mind after about a minute into the video , but and I'm no lawyer here, I don't think it would have applied in this incident.
 
nicksison said:
Stand your ground was the first thing that crossed my mind after about a minute into the video , but and I'm no lawyer here, I don't think it would have applied in this incident.
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I totally agree! From what the video shows, these 2 seem to deserve to be charged with and tried for murder. Stand your ground could easily be abused by trigger happy people.
 
Not a lot of time to continue this. Life! But believe there’s some room for interpretation in “Stand Your Ground” laws. The guys out of Central Casting: The Beverly Hillbillies, were the aggressors and moved to that other jackass’s location. Now, is that ground “theirs to defend” under Stand Your Ground??? Beats me, as I’m no criminal - or any other type - of attorney. But have had some legal training as one part of my USN stint. But you’re usually in circumstances that can be interpreted in several ways when off of your own property. So will be interesting to watch how this plays out.
 
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This is what happens when stupid flocks together. They all had a part in the outcome, I do not believe the court will be overly sympathetic to either party. Wife should have been working to de-escalate her mentally ill husband and Dumb Snr and Jnr should have, no matter who is right or wrong of the GARBAGE issue, backed off and called the cops. I have no issue with the concept of stand your ground but to do so simply over some garbage in dumb (the legality I am not sure about given I am not even nearly from Texas).

I 100% agree with a person's right to defend themselves BTW. It should however come with a little common sense attached.
 
Andy the Aussie said:
This is what happens when stupid flocks together. They all had a part in the outcome, I do not believe the court will be overly sympathetic to either party. Wife should have been working to de-escalate her mentally ill husband and Dumb Snr and Jnr should have, no matter who is right or wrong of the GARBAGE issue, backed off and called the cops. I have no issue with the concept of stand your ground but to do so simply over some garbage in dumb (the legality I am not sure about given I am not even nearly from Texas).

I 100% agree with a person's right to defend themselves BTW. It should however come with a little common sense attached.
Click to expand...

I stand with Andy on this.
Stand your ground or not. The courts are not going to be sympathetic to either party. Idiots on both sides. Look at the body language of the man holding the pistol.... he raises the pistol, ever so slightly, at least twice.... finger on the trigger throughout the video. You’d walk away from him, if you had any sense of self preservation.

This is perfect fodder for gun haters. Death over garbage and over misplaced pride.

Courts are more likely to blame anyone who used violence when he could have walked away from a dangerous situation.
 
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