Okay who is crazy here?

One thing I think needs to be mentioned is that $19,000 is not Mr. Loveless' asking price for this knife. This knife is priced by a dealer(a very knowledgeable and respected one at that) based on what the market will bear for a knife that the demand for greatly outweighs the supply. If you could(and you can't) order one from Mr. Loveless I believe if I remember right that his price is somewhere between 3,000 and 4,000 dollars. Still very expensive but considering the skill and time required to make the knife combined with his place in knifemaking history makes it an absolute steal.
 
Wow, chill out fellas.
Once upon a time in the mid 50's most hunting knives looked basically like Randalls or Scagels and most were much bigger than they needed to be for American game. Along came Mr Loveless who tried to buy a Randall when his merchant marine ship docked in NY at the Abercrombie and Finch store. When told he would have to wait 9 months, he decided to make one himself. When he returned a while later and showed the manager the knife he had made, A&F ordered 72 knives on the spot and thus began his career. When he designed the dropped point hunter, he changed the face of a whole genre of knives. You'd be hard pressed to find a maker since then who hasn't made a copy of that knife at one time or other. He also made the first of what is now called the chute knife, and also the Big Bear. He refused to make wall hangers and insisted his knives were made to be used. He was also a founding member of the Knifemakers Guild. I believe he also made the first collaboration with Schrade. Whether you like him or his knives, he certainly made his mark in the knife world.
Why do people pay thousands of dollars for rare coins or stamps or Babe Ruth's sweaty old baseball jersey? Why drive a Mercedes when a Chevy will get you there? Cause it's worth it to them. Don't knock it because you cant afford it or if you dont put as much value on it. Scagels are routinely going for over $20,000, DE Henry bowie's are up there, and early Randalls are pretty high too. There are obviously people who value them that much.
Dave
PS-when asked by someone which one of his knives he carried, Bob looked at the guy and said: "none, I cant afford to carry a Loveless".
 
You have indeed made your point, lifter4Him. I guess I'm just looking at it from a point of view where a $5500+ Howard Clark katana in full koshirae and polish looks nicer, is more substantial, has a lot more work put into it, and yet is cheaper than a $19000 hollow-ground stainless steel stock-removal blade with a micarta handle.

It's the same thing with a sweaty old baseball shirt, or a baseball with a signature scribbled on it...
 
Bob is the founding member of the all knowing, all seeing, all powerfull..........CALIFORNIA KNIFEMAKERS ASSOCIATION!!!!!!!:D
 
One of the first five Big Bears !?! Wow. The price does not shock me. After all, it is an unique artifact, the chances to come by another one like this are minimal. If I won $20.000 today (the lottery or something ;)), I'd buy it.
 
Sounds great, if you promise that you still will be making knives in 30 years and that the resale value will appreciate like a Loveless, put me down for 20. :rolleyes:
 
I think I understand why so many folks have a hard time understanding why a knife could sell for 19K. But I know that there are even more expensive knives that represent the history of american knifemaking, like Schivey (blacksmith approx 1840) and Michael Price (turn of the century San Francisco cutler extraordinaire). Great examples of these makers work are copied, admired, and bought and sold for Many tens of thousands of dollars or even more. I have seen a few collected by other successful knifemakers and they are amazing treasures which tell stories of days gone by, and what is to come.

Another example of things being valued differently from their apparent value as functional objects is that simple chests of drawers or chairs made by certain skilled craftsmen of 19th century america are worth Hundreds of thousands of dollars on the open market. Does that make any sense for a functional piece of furniture? Of course not! But it makes perfect sense when you put a monetary value on the rarity, condition, and Meaning of a piece of Art History.

Very simple, sometimes seemingly crude knives made early in this centruy by a blacksmith named Scagel will sometimes command prices in the range of tens of thousands. Loveless is even lower down the high end knife collectors price scale.

I see knife collecting as a branch of Art collecting. All of my knives represent some form the knifemakers art, those that cost less than a hundred dollars, and those that cost more than a $1000. I can not afford to invest in a 19K Loveless knife, but I can sure wish I was the guy who bought it originally in the 1960's for a a few hundred dollars (I don't know the orginal purchase price). As noted in Lifter's great post, Loveless himself has remarked that he can not afford a Loveless knife. That is terribly ironic and amusing indeed.

The market for collectible knives has responded to Mr. Loveless place in modern knife making history and his role in helping create and define the industry and art form. He was and is avidly collected by Japanese knife collectors, who place a premium value on Loveless' designs. Since the down turn in the Japanese economy, the price of Loveless knives has not changed much. A recent auction of a large collection of his knives brought in far more dollars than anticipated for many items. It was a strange case of supply increasing, and prices increasing at the same time.

His simple hunters with micarta scales will garner around 10K in price today, but only because folks who pay that kind of money are collecting Art or making an investment, or both. If you just want a great subhilt, there are a wealth of even Better makers out there who will sell you a superior knife for far less money. And you can use it too :)

There are Lots of knives that will work as well functionally and may even have far superior fit and finish compared to that Loveless blade, but the Loveless blade is a piece of History. And it, like any other handmade object, can be called a product of skill and craft that in its highest form, is Art. Simplicity and elegance of line and form is just as important to defining art as fancy engravings or exotic materials. All of Mr. Loveless' knives are collected as Art, not as knives, but if they were not functional knives FIRST, they would not have any value at all.

Para
 
I might not pay $19,000 for that Loveless, but I would happily put out that much, and more, if I had it, to buy a genuine J. D. Searle of Baton Rouge, Louisiana, bowie-style knife and sheath. Or, God kows how much a genuine James Black blade would be worth if such a thing were ever found. Think of the history involved in such a find!
 
I have no problem understanding why this knife sells for 19,000 dollars, but I think it's a minor tragedy.

What a shame it is that such a beautiful knife, through circumstance and demand, has been so astronomicaly priced that it will never fulfill the purpose for which it was made.
That knife was carefully crafted to be placed in a sheath, worn on the hip and carried out into the world.
Now? It's a curio, an artifact, a status symbol or an investment. Perhaps it's best described as an "Objet de' Arte."

Whatever it is, it's not a "knife" anymore and I find that a little sad.

I suspect that although Mr. Loveless rightfully enjoys the financial security that such high demand creates, he sometimes wishes people would just use his knives as he meant them to be used.
 
I've learned that two people can lok at the exact same thing and see something totally different.

What Ken see's as a tragedy I see as a triumph. How many makers have Loveless's knives inspired to try their hand and try to capture what they saw? Of course it's a knife, it's also turned into a icon and the man into a Legend. What more could someone who creates something out of nothing want in life?

Is it a crime this knife isn't going to get used? No of course not, any more than if an expensive coin wasn't used to buy gum from a vending machine or a rare stamp used to mail a letter.

Is this knife worth the asking price? That's between the buyer and the seller, and if you're not a high-end knife buyer with the money, the point is moot. My guess is that Dave Ellis put a fair price on it and some buyer is going to see it and pay it with a smile on their face. As for the rest of us let's be glad that knives can demand prices like this, it's good for dealers, it's good for makers and it's good for everyone who loves knives, no matter what price range we look in.
 
Our first problem here is that this knife is out of our league. Most of do not and probably never will own a knife in this price range, much less a collection of these knives. There is nothing wrong with that, but it means it is hard for us to understand the crowd that does buy these things.

I once asked a high end collector why he invested what must have been many hundreds of thousands of dollars in high end art knives. His answer surprised me a little. He said that the knives tended to retain their value, they were attractive to look at, and unlike real estate these assets could move annonimously. There is nothing nefarious in that answer. But, I can understand where someone in a high income range would take steps to protect their capital, and things like these knives may be one of the tools they use.

There are many factors that drive the market. Quality of manufacture, historical significance, value retention have been discussed. The value of this article as a status symbol, or some other factor can only be appreciated by someone who lives in that tax bracket. The knife looks expensive to us, but it could be a cheap premium given by a corporation in celebration of closing a multi-billion dollar deal.

Everything is relative.

Now if any of you mega-rich collectors want to give me this knife as a cheap trinket I will be more than happy to accept it. :)

N2S
 
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