"Old Knives"

lambertiana said:
The blade sits proud of the bolster. And the blade has deep pitting (which has been buffed off most of the tang stamp and blade but not the spine) but the backsprings show no corrosion. Those are red flags
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For me (a bumbling amateur) a blade transplant wouldn't classify as counterfeit. It appears period correct and same brand, alls I'd do is fix the sway back tendency and use the heck out of it:)
From a "collectors" perspective I can see how it might/could be a concern but to me it's a fine knife;)
 
ed_is_dead said:
Love to hear you thoughts.
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lambertiana said:
The blade sits proud of the bolster. And the blade has deep pitting (which has been buffed off most of the tang stamp and blade but not the spine) but the backsprings show no corrosion. Those are red flags
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As above, the blade is high of the bolster and the spacer, which it should not be. A blade that has worn the spring (which is a more tempered steel) to the point where it's worn "proud" is rarely one that had not been used, and this blade shows little sharpening use. Likewise the pitting on the blade is not consistent with the backsprings, or even all of the other blades. The one pen blade (minimum) also has been polished to the point where there's no sharp edges on the trademark. The lack of a model number always makes me suspicious.

Honestly without photos or my glasses I probably wouldn't notice, but those photos scare me off.

A really good book, I can't recommend it enough, is Wicher's "Counterfeiting Antique Cutlery". He goes very in depth on Case specifically.
 
ed_is_dead said:
For me (a bumbling amateur) a blade transplant wouldn't classify as counterfeit.
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If it was sold as a factory knife, and it isn't, that's a fake. If it was sold as something put together that's different. It's a pattern I like, as I stated. It looks good, and I'd probably use it. But if I was collecting old Case knives I would not be happy.

And, in case you have not priced such old Case knives, it can be expensive.
 
Thank for everyone thoughts on the Remington, I agree the knife has questions but I do think it is correct. If you look at all the pictures all the blades have cleaned corrosion on them at the spine, knife possibly sat closed and corroded for many years. The sheepsfoot blade over travels and shows a sunken spring when open, if you hold the blade where it should be it is even and square, I think the pin may have rusted causing some of the issues. Surprisingly the knife still has good snap and no blade rub even with issues.
As far as pattern number not all Remingtons had pattern numbers and later ones had an ink etched pattern number that rarely survived, I posted an ink etched knife a few pages back that did survive.
I don't mind anyone questioning a knife, that's how we learn, this is also an example of why I don't like cleaned knives, hard to determine originality once cleaned. I'm not into the knife for much and I like a good Congress knife so I bought it as such.
 
I like that Remington quite a lot. It has pretty worn scales with fine color. It looks really fine folded, something I admire in a multi-blade knife. The shield is in fine alignment, something that companies like Cattaraugus did not always seem to think was all that important and evident even in their old catalogs. I can see why you liked it. It doesn't have any broken blades, which is usually a deal breaker for me when I buy a knife. If it wasn't presented to you as 100 percent original when you bought it (and old knives are rarely presented that way has been my experience) then it would not bother me. Sometimes we can take this knife collecting hobby too seriously. In the end, if you like it, then that is what matters the most. If any of you are like me, you won't ever get rich from your old or new knife collecting. If anyone gets rich (maybe Charlie's offspring 😊), it might be your offspring(s). But I doubt that. I know I won"t prosper from my knife fever, quite the opposite because I always want to hold on to mine. If that old Remington had a broken blade and someone repaired it with another unbroken blade (and the tang stamps appear to be the same in this case), I would, quite frankly, thank them for that, as I would not have any interest in it with a broken blade.

Here is my questionable knife contribution. Have at it. Tell me anything you want about it, just don't send me a PM and offer to take it off my hands because you won't get an answer. 😊
The pattern stamp on this old Cattaraugus knife is stamped on the back of the clip blade as 21419. Both blades have the familiar to me Catt tang stamps and all of this in the correct font they used so many years. I cleaned it with light abrasives ( as I usually do, some get light cleaning, some get more, and I do not like metal polish or buffing a knife ) I don't normally try to get an old knife to look new, just better to my eye, and it is my eye that matters most. I understand that some don't mind cleaning and some do. I won't discuss that with you because I have been offered 2 or 3 times, in some cases, what I paid for a knife after I cleaned it up.

Right away and before I bought this knife, I knew the pattern stamp was not correct. I questioned (to myself) that the clip might not be original to the knife. There was nothing in the description from the seller that made any claim of being original either. The pattern number 2 means two blades, followed by 1 should mean one bolster, followed by model number 41 which can mean diner's knife/or teardrop jack, followed by 9, which means bone. So the second number is wrong because it definitely has two bolsters. The worm groove bone on both sides is original to the knife and it is apparent to me that the scales have never been damaged or replaced, and have the original small hammered pins. None of the bolsters show under magnification that this knife has ever been taken apart. If it has been, they did a mighty fine job. No flat spots from pin filing, nothing visible around the hinge pin. The blades open and shut smoothly, chink on the half stops, and both open to a proper and very nice angle. Aside from the pattern number being wrong and the clip being unusual for this type of knife, it is a very finely operating knife, on top of being handsome. I would not sell it and like it a lot.

I think it might have been a pattern 2269, which was pictured in my older Catt catalog as being 4" with long pen in front of the spear blade. The profile and look of the pattern of my 4" knife matches that. In either of my Catt catalogs, there is no pattern number 21419. I think the knife could have had a pen in front of the spear and maybe the pen got broken, then a highly skilled cutler placed the spear in front of the clip blade. If this was the case, it was done in it's early years, as apparent when looking down in the liners and from the spring end. It could be a lunchbox parts knife, a parts knife, a repaired knife, or it could have never made the catalogs. I doubt the later, since the pattern stamp on the clip disputes it. They got the shield alignment perfect on this one. Anyway I look at it and regardless of it's life's encounters, I love the knife.

Tell me what you think if you want to give it a go ! 😊 This one would make a fine rabbit skinner.

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Augie said:
Picked up a Robeson 646208 large 4 1/8' Congress, close to full blades, looks to be 1920's, 1930's which seemed to be the peak of the Congress pattern. Apparently very popular down South and most you find are heavily used.
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Real nice Robeson, John!!
Primble said:
The pattern stamp on this old Cattaraugus knife is stamped on the back of the clip blade.
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Whatever the stamp (factory error or replacement?), that's a gorgeous knife, Rob!!

Merry Xmas!! This knife is etched "Compliments of the Season", so maybe a present for valued (electrical) employees?? This is of the old style that unlocks the driver blade by squeezing on the main!! Works smoothly!! Pre-WWII, before 1930, when Empire shut down!!Electrician 1.jpgElectrician 2.jpg
 
Primble, great looking folder and photograph👍 Looks like a pattern no. 2269 to me also. If you look in “Romance of Collecting”
by Mrs. Dewey P. Ferguson 1978 on page 61 there is pattern no. 21419 Come-Apart Camp Knife with a fork and clip blade. Looks like that clip blade could be the source of your pile side clip blade? Anyway, just a thought.

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Luger1952 said:
Primble, great looking folder and photograph👍 Looks like a pattern no. 2269 to me also. If you look in “Romance of Collecting”
by Mrs. Dewey P. Ferguson 1978 on page 61 there is pattern no. 21419 Come-Apart Camp Knife with a fork and clip blade. Looks like that clip blade could be the source of your pile side clip blade? Anyway, just a thought.

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Thanks for that reference Lloyd - I could never find that pattern - puzzle solved I think ! 😳😊 I reckon that my knife could still be a lunch boxer, but, seems my feelings that the clip replaced a broken pen and the original spear was moved in front of the clip was correct. Regardless, it remains a handsome knife that I like a lot. I see they describe that model as a come apart, but, just looking at it, I suppose the diner's knife model number 41 could also apply to the knife you show. Many thanks ! As my mother used to say when she saw something she liked that was different or unusual, "Who ever thought of that had a pretty good idea" applies to my knife.😇
 
waynorth said:
maybe a present for valued (electrical) employees?
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I think it's more likely a company gift for customers. It would be really interesting to know who handed those out. At a time when $40/month was a good wage that was not a cheap gift. And while we consider that pattern as an Electrician's, I think it was around prior to household electricity being a "normal" thing. It was probably more likely a mechanics tool. I wonder how old that pattern really is? (The US Army was still issuing that pattern in mechanic's tool kits up into the 1980's.)
 
eisman said:
I think it's more likely a company gift for customers. It would be really interesting to know who handed those out. At a time when $40/month was a good wage that was not a cheap gift. And while we consider that pattern as an Electrician's, I think it was around prior to household electricity being a "normal" thing. It was probably more likely a mechanics tool. I wonder how old that pattern really is? (The US Army was still issuing that pattern in mechanic's tool kits up into the 1980's.)
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I was under the impression they (all) switched to a liner-lock mechanism close to WWII (late 1930s)?? The screwdriver in my post unlocks by depressing the main blade.
 
waynorth said:
I was under the impression they (all) switched to a liner-lock mechanism close to WWII (late 1930s)?? The screwdriver in my post unlocks by depressing the main blade.
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You're probably correct. I meant the two blades, one an "electrician's", in a Jack pattern with a locking main. I remember being bored while "in the field" back around '83-84 and pulling two of the issue knives apart and making a two blade jack. I reground the second blade to a different shape. Back then the knives were "Class 9" and if you "lost" one you just went and got another.

Still, it would be interesting to know when that pattern originated. Blade patterns tend to come into use for practical reasons. Just look at the knives that had cutouts for adjusting the early auto headlights. Even can openers have changed as the construction (and material) of cans has changed. There had to be a point where a long blade with a tip shaped for driving screws was as practical as an awl, or a hoof pick, or a corkscrew. Certainly it was established well enough to get Gov't contract purchases in the 1930's, and the Army was, if anything, conservative and frugal. I wonder if it proceeded the telephone?
 
Augie said:
The sheepsfoot blade over travels and shows a sunken spring when open, if you hold the blade where it should be it is even and square, I think the pin may have rusted causing some of the issues.
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This changes a lot about how I feel about the knife. I tried to visualize how the blade would sit if in the correct position, but I guess I wasn't entirely successful. The sunken spring can be a sign of a worn spring/tang or a blade replacement. If it appears that the blade is not aligned correctly with the bolster/liners, I usually think it's a blade replacement, but I can see how a worn or corroded pin and overtravel could lead to the same appearance. Since this is a NS pin, I lean away from corrosion and think it is more likely wear, or just a bad pin to begin with.
 
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