"Old Knives"

cutlersedge · Aug 8, 2010

The knife looks like it has been "cleaned" to me, it does not have a patina on the brass or nickle silver for a knife that old. Still a great knife:thumbup:

lambertiana · Aug 9, 2010

I agree, that Wade & Butcher has been cleaned. The blade finish is not right, the bolster is not polished (they didn't take it to high enough grit when they cleaned it). And the dead giveaway is the lockbar. The spine of the lockbar is nicely polished, but the sides of the lockbar that are visible in the handle indentation have the patina that the rest of the knife used to have.

cutlersedge · Aug 9, 2010

One other thing, the stag handles, especially the backside looks a little thick compared to what I am used to seeing on knives of that vintage. It may have been rehandled

CE

KnifeHead · Aug 9, 2010

lambertiana said:
I agree, that Wade & Butcher has been cleaned. The blade finish is not right, the bolster is not polished (they didn't take it to high enough grit when they cleaned it). And the dead giveaway is the lockbar. The spine of the lockbar is nicely polished, but the sides of the lockbar that are visible in the handle indentation have the patina that the rest of the knife used to have.

All good points. So, how was it cleaned? Do you think it was taken apart or cleaned while together. If it was taken apart, how was it not damaged in the process? In particular, it's very difficult to clean up the bolsters, after re pining the pivot pin, without getting into the blade. The blade finish is consistent from the tip to the tang, so the blade would have had to be removed. The stag has no marks of belt grinder contact that is would generally happen near the bolsters.

I was skeptical when I first saw it too. It's REALLY clean for a knife that old.

KnifeHead · Aug 9, 2010

cutlersedge said:
One other thing, the stag handles, especially the backside looks a little thick compared to what I am used to seeing on knives of that vintage. It may have been rehandled

CE

What kind of grade would you then give to the person that rehandled it? Even most custom knifemakers struggle with properly fitting stag.

waynorth · Aug 9, 2010

No wear on the stag, but the blade is down a bit, IMO. So the stag could be new. To fit it that well, and clean the blade and bolsters so evenly, it was probably taken apart.
Polishing the sides of the lockbar could screw up the fit, and cause unwanted gaps, so it was left mostly alone. Swedges were re-cut a little too enthusiastically - got too far into the pull.
A good mechanic can re-pin a knife so you can't tell it was done.
Guy was good:thumbup:, but Tony needs to give him (her?) a grinding lesson or two!

Or - - - -I'm completely full of it!

KnifeHead · Aug 9, 2010

Wait a minute there, you mean the guy on Ebay was lying when he said it was "untouched"!

ken erickson · Aug 9, 2010

waynorth said:
Swedges were re-cut a little too enthusiastically - got too far into the pull.
A good mechanic can re-pin a knife so you can't tell it was done.

Kerry,

A really cool lockback and glad you took the time to take pictures and share with us.

A few things. I think Charlie has a good point on the swedge grinding. The nail pull just does not look like its in the "correct" spot. Do you think its possible that there may have been a bit more rise along the top edge of the blade before the clip. If so the pull would have been more parallel.

It is also possible to see the lock bar pivot pin (third picture down) in the bolster. It has that sharp line that looks like it was relatively recently fit.

Perhaps sometime in the future I can take a look at it in person

Which would be a real treat for me.

Ken

JatMat · Aug 9, 2010

I would say a REALLY good pirate took an oldie, but goodie and made it look almost new. For me, the pitting on the backside of spring and sides of lockbar gave the cleaning away. Since the guy on the bay lied, (or someone else is pulling our collective legs). Just send the sucker to me. I will take great care of it.

KnifeHead · Aug 9, 2010

ken erickson said:
Kerry,

A really cool lockback and glad you took the time to take pictures and share with us.

A few things. I think Charlie has a good point on the swedge grinding. The nail pull just does not look like its in the "correct" spot. Do you think its possible that there may have been a bit more rise along the top edge of the blade before the clip. If so the pull would have been more parallel.

It is also possible to see the lock bar pivot pin (third picture down) in the bolster. It has that sharp line that looks like it was relatively recently fit.

Perhaps sometime in the future I can take a look at it in person Which would be a real treat for me.

Ken

That appears likely. I've seen some old knives with slightly canted long pulls but this one goes overboard and the swedge is a little crazy lookin. Have the Pirates of Wilfred been out pirated!!! Film at eleven

cutlersedge · Aug 9, 2010

KnifeHead said:
What kind of grade would you then give to the person that rehandled it? Even most custom knifemakers struggle with properly fitting stag.

Most English stag was not that dark on their early knives,pre1900,that is a giveaway right there. As I said the hafts are way too thick for a quality English firm. If you want me to grade the job that was done I would give it a 4 out of a possible 10, with 10 matching what early English cutlers could produce in terms of quality. It is a lost art I think, American knife makers have to grind and taper the edges that meet the bolsters, in the process taking away the natural stag pattern, on old English knives the is very little if any removed at the bolster seam. The old natural stag runs continuously right to the bolster and that is the big difference in the old school quality versus new modern production. They simply do not take the time to fit it properly

CE

John L · Aug 9, 2010

Do you thaink the change in stag fitting is only a matter of expertise or do you think there was a better selection stag to pick thru? Seems like stag would be the same then as now...???

KnifeHead · Aug 9, 2010

Berkley · Aug 9, 2010

KnifeHead said:
They certainly had more to pick from than we have today.

From Joseph Rodgers and Sons:

VCM3 · Aug 9, 2010

I might be nuts ot ?? But I recall,somewhere,I either read it,was told it,or dreamt it..
Didn't they(Sheffield Cutlers) have a treatment with thier stag,in where it was boiled,or something like that,to soften it,to help in the hafting process.

Maybe it was George Washingtons soldiers boiling there boot soles for food,that I'm getting confused with.

Kerry,did you tamper with that knife ? Nice brush finish on the bolster,did you put a pivot bushing it?

-Vince

VCM3 · Aug 9, 2010

I'm not nuts...

http://199.231.142.3/forums/showpost.php?p=5093630&postcount=2

zerogee · Aug 9, 2010

VCM3 said:
I might be nuts ot ?? But I recall,somewhere,I either read it,was told it,or dreamt it..
Didn't they(Sheffield Cutlers) have a treatment with thier stag,in where it was boiled,or something like that,to soften it,to help in the hafting process.

-Vince

Yes, there was a several step process (boiling both softened the rough cut stag scales and was the point at which natural dyestuffs were added to the water (along with who knows what else - again, lost art) to give it the gorgeous translucent quality that the antique English stag has). They would shape and flatten the stag progressively during the process to fit the various patterns of knives -- there were generations of guys that had specialized in all this, supplying the cutlery firms - they were good at it. It was not a pick a select few, throw the rest away process -- even back then, they couldn't afford to do that. After all, the stag was still shipped from halfway around the world back then too, and they didn't have containerized super freighters to ship it all in either (and the dyestuffs came from about a third of the way around the world in the other direction).

VCM3 · Aug 9, 2010

Thanks Dwight. I would think,with all that,done to the stag originally,plus the years of aging,it would be easy to spot a rehandled stag knife,by a knowledgeable collector of such knives
-Vince

d.parker · Aug 9, 2010

The knife is original.. uncleaned....

KnifeHead · Aug 9, 2010

VCM3 said:
I might be nuts ot ?? But I recall,somewhere,I either read it,was told it,or dreamt it..
Didn't they(Sheffield Cutlers) have a treatment with thier stag,in where it was boiled,or something like that,to soften it,to help in the hafting process.

Maybe it was George Washingtons soldiers boiling there boot soles for food,that I'm getting confused with.

Kerry,did you tamper with that knife ? Nice brush finish on the bolster,did you put a pivot bushing it?

-Vince

Nahhhh...I'm for leaving them they way they aged. Plus, I don't have time for such things. I'd rather spend the time posting up things that gets folks all stirred up.

ARRRRRRRR!

How bout another, but this one is more honest looking. This is a 5 3/8" Remington Bullet "bananna" R1253.