"Old Knives"

[festerfromnzed]

WILLGOY...the ring on the french folder is how you close it...you lift the ring and lower the blade.I have put this knife on brl,s site but not much info was gained.Apparently a lot of the French cutlery history was destroyed in a fire they had there..Damn shame because i would love to know more about its age etc......FES

 

[zerogee]

I'm brooding about the chequered horn on that large Sportsman knife. How on earth could they do it with such regularity in pattern and without ruining the scales? Perhaps some long lost technique?

It's not actually cut checkering but a really good job of pressed checkering -- pressed horn of various sorts and types was a significant business in Sheffield back then - a lot was used. Notice how the sides of the diamonds of the "checkering" are relatively shiny - if they were cut they would be dull (look at some fine checkering on a gunstock), and if they were then buffed to make them shiny they would be rounded -- therefore, they're pressed.

 

[Will Power]

My thanks to festerfromnzed for the correction, a kind of locking ring eh? That's clever. Forum member Dagon-who lives in Belgium-may be able to help as he knows a tidy amount on French cutlers.

Thanks too to Dwight for the info. The regularity of the pressing now makes utter sense. Nevertheless, it must have been specialized as 'stamping' could easily crack or wreck the piece. Do you know if they had to steam or soak horn prior to this? Could this treatment be used on other materials such as bone?

Thanks, W

 

[Robert.B]

My thanks to festerfromnzed for the correction, a kind of locking ring eh? That's clever. Forum member Dagon-who lives in Belgium-may be able to help as he knows a tidy amount on French cutlers.

Thanks too to Dwight for the info. The regularity of the pressing now makes utter sense. Nevertheless, it must have been specialized as 'stamping' could easily crack or wreck the piece. Do you know if they had to steam or soak horn prior to this? Could this treatment be used on other materials such as bone?

Thanks, W

There are various ways, boiling, baking, etc just to get the horn soft...its almost like plastic when you get it to the malleable point. The pressing plates would have been heated iron too, horn pressing and shaping has been done since the norse ruled the baltic.

 

[Will Power]

Thanks too to Robert. A kind of branding then? Norse artefacts in horn and tusk do show this, good point.

 

[Robert.B]

Thanks too to Robert. A kind of branding then? Norse artefacts in horn and tusk do show this, good point.

Not branding, branding would burn the horn which you dont want (it makes the horn go brittle)...but the dies you press the horn in you want hot enough to keep the horn malleable until it has been shaped and then it needs to cool to keep the shape. The consistency I can only describe as hot perspex, while its hot it will retain its shape to a degree, press it between two items till it cools and it will stay that shape.

But there are a few ways this can be done, who knows how these knife makers did it but they sure hit the nail on the head for looks!

 

[zerogee]

It's my understanding that a lot of horn typically requires a temperature just a bit above the boiling point of water to reach optimum malleability (say 240F or thereabouts) -- I know they typically used steam when doing the actual pressing (and the dies were preheated as RobertB mentions). I don't know how they managed to do the whole "cool down to set the pressed horn" bit while maintaining a good production rate though.

 

[festerfromnzed]

WILLGOY..i understand that the locking mechanism is referred to as (la virole) in french of course...I will send DAGON a pm and see what transpires....with thanks ...FES

 

[stefan_wolf_ss]

Old traditional bulgarian knife.

Blade material is SS, some unknown - may be old russian 4x13 steel but with good HT

I'm not sure - but the shape is typical for mediteranium knives ...

Old knives /1944-1989/ in Bulgaria are inspired by utility russian pocket knives, cheap and bad quality - poor knife history of small east countries after WWII

 

[thawk]

Cool old friction folder Stefan.

 

[thawk]

Moved to Elusive Schrade thread. Seemed like a better thread choice.

http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php/622355-Elusive-Schrades/page17

 

[VCM3]

" Jonathan Crookes began using the Heart and Percussion Pistol trademark in the late 1700's. His company built knives well into the 1800's. He is credited by some as having built the Joseph Rodger's Year knife containing 1821 blades. After his death the trademark was taken over by Joseph Allen around 1910 which kept it in use until around 1950 or so when it was again taken over by H.M. Slater. This 4 " closed stag hafted sleeveboard appears to have been Allen built around 1920 or so. It has seen significant use and pocket carry but remains a fairly full bladed example of the pattern, built on a single 3/16" backspring. It remains a difficult knife to open and close safely. The liners and catch bit / blade rest are brass, while the bolsters, pins, and shield are nickel silver. The blades are scratched, pitted, and stained from use over time. The knife is almost an inch wide across the top. A very stout knife by most any measure. Along with the Kelley How Thompson sleeveboard whittler you have seen previously, which is a substantial knife in its own right. "

 

[VCM3]

 

[supratentorial]

4" closed
half stops on both blades
ebony wood handles
Maher & Grosh

From the "Cattle knife type double-end jacks" section of LGIV (p191)

The rarest double-end jack knives are the ones built on fancy cattle knife handle dies. These are... SURVEYOR or swell-center canoe...

The "Colorado stock knife" in this advertisement is a three blade knife with a similar handle shape. The advertisement also lists two blade jacks. According to the person who sold the advertisement, it was printed in 1895.

 

[rickmenefee]

that is a wonderful knife. I have been working on this pattern. This knife

 

[supratentorial]

That sleeveboard is a nice example! A long time ago, I bought a Jonathon Crookes congress... or so I thought...unfortunately it was a parts knife. That was the first time I was fooled (that I know of! ) but I learned an important lesson. Thank you for posting the photos!

 

[supratentorial]

Thank you, Rick. I hope you post photos of that knife!

 

[rickmenefee]

I would like to post pictures of them side by side.

 

[VCM3]

3 5/8" closed, nickel silver pins, shield, and bolsters, brass lined, stag hafted, 1856 - 1930. Heavily tarnished and deeply pitted blades, master 1/4" short, soft spring, extensively carried and used....... basically a worn out knife by most any standards. A knife expert would tell you it has little or no value. I have used this knife to open literally hundreds of packages,envelopes, boxes, and bags, cut open countless rootballs and bags of dirt. It was in this condition when I acquired it many years ago. The layout and fitting of the stag on this knife is the equal or better of any fine English knife I have ever seen or handled. One of my all time favorite knives. Along with an old 4 " Primble punch stockman you have seen before with similar stag. Have a nice Memorial Day.

 

[VCM3]

Here's the rest of 'em....