"Old Knives"

"3 3/4" closed, pre - 1890, very slight use, most original crocus finish remains intact, very tight and stiff like when new,the tight grained early English stag hafts are still very sharp to the touch. Nickel silver tip bolsters and bar shield, brass lined. The tang stamp reads : J.Gregg & Co. Ld., Sloane Square. Even after owning this knife for several years, I can find nothing or no one that can tell me who J. Gregg & Co. was. I assume it to be a London retailer, purveyor, or outfitter of some sort, especially sine it is a Sheffield built knife.

Please pardon me for commenting on a post that is four years old, but I found your wonderful Gregg knife on bladeforums only now, a week after buying two straight razors made by "GREGG, 27 Sloane Sq". I found them at a flea market in London, bone-handled and in fine condition, at least good enough to get a comfortable and close shave. My son and I have done a little research on James Gregg of Sloane Square and came up with this:

According to information available on the internet, James Gregg was a cutler working out of a shop at 50 Tothill Street, Westminster, London (located a block east of the St. James's Park underground station and two blocks west of Westminster Abbey). Whether he owned the shop or was employed there, I don't know. In or around the years 1852-1862 he moved the shop to, or perhaps went into business on his own at 27 Sloane Square, London (on the southwest corner of Sloane Square, just where King's Road enters into Sloane Square). I visited the site a week ago and of course found no trace of any cutlery business, only high-end clothing stores. Even the street number is no longer there. There is a womens' boutique with the address 27a Sloane Square, and to the left of that is a shop with the number 28. The shop on the right already has a King's Road address. Discussions I have seen on the internet indicate that James Gregg made and sold high quality wares. He died on August 28, 1884, and his daughter Caroline Emily Schultz inherited his estate (according to the the London Gazette of October 14, 1884). It is mentioned there that she was the wife of a certain Friedrich Heinrich Carl Schultz. Sometime after this date the name stamped on tools from this shop changed from "James Gregg" or "J Gregg" to simply "Gregg,", and according to one source on the internet it changed to "Gregg & Co" or "J Gregg & Co" in 1910. The voters lists for London in 1899 list a Friedrich Heinrich Carl Schultz, and in the same lists for the years 1907, 1912 and 1913 a Heinrich Gregg Schultz can be found. These lists include no further information, just the name.

The rest of what I write here is purely hypothetical. My assumption is that Friedrich Heinrich Carl Schultz was James Gregg's employee, who then became his son-in-law. Judging by the extreme Germanic quality of that name, it is possible that he was a cutler from Germany who had moved to London. My further assumption is that Schultz and his wife Caroline, the daughter of James Gregg, had a son whom they named Heinrich Gregg Schultz, maybe to keep the name Gregg in the family, which was still being stamped on their tools. All traces of the family and the business appear to have been lost as of 1915, at least I haven't found anything more pertaining to it. The disappearance as of 1915 is not surprising due to the First World War having commenced, which resulted in massive anti-German sentiment in the UK. Numerous German-owned businesses were confiscated by the government at that time, one of the most notable being the present-day Wigmore Hall, a venue for classical concerts in London, which prior to World War I was owned by the Berlin piano manufacturer Bechstein. James Gregg of Sloane Square, being run by someone whose name revealed his German heritage, could not possibly have survived under those circumstances.

I do have a question for VCM3: Can you tell me why you assume your knife is pre-1890? One internet source I ran across in England noted that the "& Co" was added after 1910. Maybe there is something about your fine Gregg knife that reveals its age, something that you can recognize and I am ignorant of.
 
Please pardon me for commenting on a post that is four years old,

If you do not get the answer you desire in a timely manner, I would suggest sending a PM or email to VCM3, since he does not post in this thread very often or lately. ;)

Maybe because I said that, it might cause him to magically appear. :D
 
There are many Companies that used "& Co" pre 1890, you can ( at most times ) age a knife to an era depending on the knife be it a Fixed Blade, or a Pocket knife, the Stampings, the type of type face used in the stampings, and also we have reference books such as Goins, G Tweedales 1 & 2, and another very good point of reference are the older advertising Catologs which show a photo of the knife, description etc.
VCM is a good guy, and is usually pretty darn good with his knowledge. Not everything on the Net is savvy when it comes to knives - or anything else for that matter, if you want to know about knives, ask in the knife forums, or Bernard Levines Forum.
 
There are many Companies that used "& Co" pre 1890

Guess I wasn't specific enough. I assume that the term "& Co" has been widely used all over the English-speaking world long before 1890. The discussion I found on a British forum mentioned that this particular shop, James Gregg in London, first began stamping "& Co" on their products in 1910, but that may not be true. VCM3's knife is stamped with "& Co", and he states that it is pre-1890, so he probably recognizes something on it that dates it to pre-1890. If so, we can dump the idea of a 1910 introduction date as incorrect. It won't change much in this world, but we will know slightly more about James Gregg of Sloane Square.
 
Novaculite ,and All...

The knives I've posted in this thread , that are scans , are not mine. Also the descriptions provided with them are written by a god friend ,a collector who wanted to show them. I know, I have stated this before,but one sentence or two can easily be lost in this big 'ol thread :) . A wonderful giant ! I'll point this out to him & maybe I can get an answer. Thanks for the added info & Thanks to all for keeping this thread going.:thumbup:
 
There are many Companies that used "& Co" pre 1890, you can ( at most times ) age a knife to an era depending on the knife be it a Fixed Blade, or a Pocket knife, the Stampings, the type of type face used in the stampings, and also we have reference books such as Goins, G Tweedales 1 & 2, and another very good point of reference are the older advertising Catologs which show a photo of the knife, description etc.
VCM is a good guy, and is usually pretty darn good with his knowledge. Not everything on the Net is savvy when it comes to knives - or anything else for that matter, if you want to know about knives, ask in the knife forums, or Bernard Levines Forum.
I popped out an email to my friend. Maybe we'll get a thought or two jotted down.Duncan you're too kind ,but ,sometimes it is not what you know,it's who you know. :)
 
1940's Camillus


For several reasons, I feel reasonably certain that knife was made before 1940.

  • I don't recall seeing that shield used after WWII
  • That's not one of the patterns they made during WWII
  • That pattern with those blade on each end and a shield was not made post WWII (at least it doesn't show up in any of the catalogs)
  • That tang stamp was not only used during WWII, it was used pre-WWII.
 
1916-1928 Baldwin
Baldwin_1916-1928.JPG
 
Here is a Case Tested scout knife I recently acquired. It was coated with dirt and active rust. This is the large model pattern # 45 closed length 3 7/8".
It took me half day of rubbing with very fine iron paper (600-2500 grit) and a lot of oiling, being careful not loose material from the blades. At this point I am not sure if I will force patina on the blades or just leave it as it is

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Mike
 
Mike, that is a stunner. Bone looks like it's in perfect condition and and you did a great cleanup.
 
Beautiful knife, Mike, like so many others on this thread, and I can well imagine the work that went into cleaning it up. My elbow starts saying "ouch!" when I even think of it.

Is there a thread here somewhere that deals in detail with the process of cleaning up rusted knives? Some of the photos I see here show steel like Mike's Case, where the surface is still stained from age and former rust (like most of my old knives and straight razors), and others display old knives that have been buffed and shined to the point where no stains on the steel can be seen and the surface of the steel looks like a mirror, as if it had just left the shop where it was made. I assume that this would involve the removal of much more material from the blade, which Mike understandibly did not want to do. However, if I were to opt for the mirror effect, how should I go about doing it? Can anyone tell me where to find information like that here on the forum? I've looked and haven't yet found anything to answer that question. And I've also spent many an hour using elbow grease and polishing paste and have not been successful in removing all the stains from my old blades.

Thanks,
Sam
 
Thanks Steve, Primble and Sam, indeed exceptional knife. Case Tested knives are my weakness, though I reduced my collection to very few knives. It took a lot of delicate rubbing as it had a lot of rust and heavy dirt. The bone is almost perfect and it had small part missing which I had to fill with super-glue, successful act though I almost glued my fingers as well :confused: Any Sam, AFAIK there is no manual to what level you should clean a knife, at the end it comes to a personal preference. I know many would like shiny blades, but to me it looks odd to see obviously used knife with shining blades, something is wrong with the look and something is missing in the knife personality.
Anyway my process has few steps:
a. cleaning with warm water and neutral soap, then drying well with fan.
b. Bathing in oil - WD 40 for heavy rust, silicone oil otherwise. If needed few rounds of this step.
c. Rubbing with iron paper 600 grit, 1000 grit, 1500 grit, 2000 grit, 2500 grit. Long and full of pain step. I rub it till there is no red rust and the blade/steel part is smooth. Any stain left is just a natural patina that has no negative effect on the blade.
d. Rubbing the bolsters if needed.
e. Cleaning the inside with oiled piece of cotton cloth
f. Taking care of the scales if needed. Stabilizing , gluing, rubbing rough edges. Finishing with light rub with sand paper 2000/2500 grit just to refresh the look of the bone or wood scale.

Hope it clear things up

Mike
 
Thanks Mike. I'll keep your cleaning steps in a safe place for future reference. But can you tell me what "iron paper" is? Google takes me to things like iron-on pictures and whatnot, and that is certainly not what you mean. And how does it differ from sandpaper?
Sam
 
LOL Iron paper is bad translation from Hebrew. It is actually Silicon carbide (carborandum) in sheet like sand paper and it comes in high grits, so I found out it is suitable for my needs. Sorry for the confusion :o.

Mike
 
Inspired by the purchase of an I-XL mop, 3-piece lobster that had all its parts and then a a similar item by John Watts the very next day, I decided to dig out other examples. My purchases are usually quite battered but I buy them anyway.
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Adee
Very nice knives, I too absolutely love that Stampings on the early knives - that Defiance Stamp is just a sublime example of the great stamps of yesteryear! Its on a very nice knife to by the way!
 
Ahh Sheffield's, quite an era of cutlery craftsmanship. Beautiful knives you've got there ADEE, that Brooksbank is amazing buttonhook and all!!! :thumbup:
 
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