"Old Knives"

[Primble]

The newest addition to my Cattaraugus collection, model 32599 Sleeveboard Whittler, according to my old Catalog: ( thank you to Old & in the Way for this beauty )

 

[thawk]

Good Grief! What a beautiful set of handles on that whittler. The jigging is as good as it gets.

 

[blademan 13]

Yep, a pretty special one right there!

 

[kootenay joe]

Wow. I don't think it gets any better than this "Hensel" and your photography shows all of it so well.
Is this jigging with the 'worm groove' typical of Cattaraugus for certain time period ?
kj

 

[Primble]

Good Grief! What a beautiful set of handles on that whittler. The jigging is as good as it gets.

Yep, a pretty special one right there!

Wow. I don't think it gets any better than this "Hensel" and your photography shows all of it so well.
Is this jigging with the 'worm groove' typical of Cattaraugus for certain time period ?
kj

Thanks for the comments guys - the "worm groove" jigging was typical on many of the Catts, over a long period of time, as my catalogs show.

Most of my bone Catts have it.

Lots of great knives posted on the thread lately everyone. :thumbup:

 

[kootenay joe]

Thanks Primble. Old Robesons i believe also have worm grooved jigged bone. Did these companies do their own jigging or did they use a company that specialized in supplying jigged bone ?
If i am correct about Robeson having worm groove, can you distinguish between Catt. & Robeson just by looking at the jigging ?
thanks for helping my knife education.
kj

 

[Primble]

Thanks Primble. Old Robesons i believe also have worm grooved jigged bone. Did these companies do their own jigging or did they use a company that specialized in supplying jigged bone ?
If i am correct about Robeson having worm groove, can you distinguish between Catt. & Robeson just by looking at the jigging ?
thanks for helping my knife education.
kj

I am not up on the history of Robeson as much as Cattaraugus, however, I believe that Cattaraugus most likely produced their own. The Robeson bones do not get posted as much on BF and some of their "worm grooved" examples look very similar to the Catt jigging. Maybe some of the Robeson collectors can weigh in on that. Perry, Camillus, and Rochester, NY. were all in that Lake Ontario area and not all that far in location from Little Valley, NY, so it would have not have been a lot of trouble for Cattaraugus to ship the bone to Robeson.

I did find some interesting Robeson articles at these links, but, none answer the "worm grooved" question.:

http://www.rcknives.net/

http://www.robesonsrme.com/page2.html

http://iknifecollector.com/group/knifechicks2/page/robeson-cutlery-company

 

[kootenay joe]

Thank you Primble. The second link you give is very informative about the history of Robeson. A worthwhile read for sure.
kj

 

[CNoyes]

A recent Ebay auction is very suggestive that Robeson acquired bone handle material from Rogers Bone.

BRL has previously stated that Rogers' "Indian Trail" grooved bone was used by Cattaraugus.

Even if both bought grooved and/or jigged bone from Rogers, I personally, do not think they used the same pattern. There are distinct differences.

 

[kootenay joe]

Thank you Mr. Noyes. Now i need an example of a Catt. with "Indian Trail" grooved bone and an example of a older Robeson with "Worm Grooved" jigged bone, both in-hand so that i can see the differences.
kj

 

[Primble]

Thank you Mr. Noyes. Now i need an example of a Catt. with "Indian Trail" grooved bone and an example of a older Robeson with "Worm Grooved" jigged bone, both in-hand so that i can see the differences.
kj

Some Catts with the "Worm Grooved" jigging. The "Hensel" (see top of page) has it too.

 

[kootenay joe]

As i understand Mr. Noyes post, Rogers made the jigged bone for both Cattaraugus & Robeson. The jigging for Catt. was called "Indian Trail" and the jigging for Robeson was called "Worm Grooved" and these are not identical; quote C.N. "There are distinct differences."
kj

 

[Primble]

As i understand Mr. Noyes post, Rogers made the jigged bone for both Cattaraugus & Robeson. The jigging for Catt. was called "Indian Trail" and the jigging for Robeson was called "Worm Grooved" and these are not identical; quote C.N. "There are distinct differences."
kj

Joe,

I understood Charlie to say the distinct differences were between the Robeson jigging and Cattaraugus jigging. To be honest, I thought that "Indian Trail" jigging and "Worm grooved" jigging were different jigging patterns, however, this article made me think maybe not. The Rogers produced handles relates to mostly hunting knives and kitchen cutlery, if one reads the Levine article the way I did.

So - is worm grooved another name for Indian Trail or merely a description of the Indian Trail?

I still suspect that Catt made their own versions of the jigged bone, since they put it on a large number of their pocket knives and because they were a rather large manufacturer during their day. More than a few of the pocket knife manufacturers used other suppliers for their hunting knives, so possibly Rogers produced the grooved bone on them to be consistent with the pocket knife jigging?

More muddy waters to confuse, I believe. I would be interested in hearing more from the members here.

Interview from Bernard Levine:

Rogers bone was made by the Rogers Manufacturing Company of
Rockfall, Connecticut. On the telephone I interviewed Mr. Vincent
Bitel, Senior, president of the Rogers Manufacturing Company, and his
son, Mr. Vincent Bitel, Junior.
Mr. Bitel, Senior, informed me that the firm started in business in
1891, making manufactured bone products, and also bone fertilizer.
They began to make jigged bone pocketknife scales around the turn of
the century. Other manufactured bone products included combs,
toothbrush handles, baby pacifiers, and one of their biggest sellers,
corn-cob pipe bits. This particular item was discontinued in the
1950s.
Early in the century, one of this firm's competitors in the bone
business was Rogers & Hubbard. About the time of the First World War,
Rogers Mfg. Co. traded its bone fertilizer operation to Rogers &
Hubbard, and received in return the other firm's manufactured bone
products business. From that time forward, Rogers Mfg. Co. was the
nation's largest maker of manufactured bone products.
At first, all of the bone used by Rogers Mfg. Co. came from domestic
cattle. By the 1920s, and perhaps even earlier, all of it was coming
from overseas, mainly from Argentina.
Most of Rogers's pocketknife handle material was made in the
distinctive jigging pattern that collectors call "Rogers bone," but
that the firm in fact called "Rogers Stag." Rogers Stag was made
using a specially designed jigging machine which the company still
has, but that has not been used since 1962 (they have no interest in
starting it up again). They also made small quantities of other
styles of jigged bone for pocketknives.
Rogers Mfg. Co. also made jigged bone for hunting knives and for
kitchen utensils. For hunting knives, they made a style of jigging
they called "Indian Trail." This is a long random "worm" style of
jigging. Their biggest customer for bone kitchen utensil handles was
Landers Frary & Clark, who used the bone mainly on kitchen forks.
During the Second World War, Rogers's production of jigged bone
handles continued without interruption. Many of those handles wound
up on cutlery items made for the government.
The bone used by Rogers during the war was all imported. It came
from Argentina, Brazil, and a new source: Australia. The Australian
bone came mainly from old (15+ years old) tough range cattle, and so
was very thick and dense and strong. This heavy Australian bone was
used mainly for hunting knife handles.
In the 1950s, cost-conscious cutlery manufacturers began to
discontinue the production of bone handled pocketknives. Rogers Mfg.
Co. changed with the changing times, and began to offer synthetic
pocketknife handles. Mr. Bitel, who started with Rogers in 1955, was
involved in the transition. He states that Rogers Mfg. Co. was the
first firm to produce pocketknife scales made out of Delrin (a DuPont
acetal resin). One trademark Rogers used for synthetic handle
materials was Romco.
Rogers Mfg. Co. last sold bone pocketknife handle material in 1962.
The firm still supplies limited quantities of synthetic handle
material to the cutlery industry, but domestic and foreign competitors
have taken most of that specialized business away.


* Also, according to one of my Catt books, the hunting knives were manufactured in a different facility and later became Kinfolks brand.

 

[mike Berkovitch]

Thanks Primble for digging this interview, interesting stuff. The Cat. whittler is another eye candy.
Mike

 

[kootenay joe]

Primble, thank you for posting the BRL interview. He is missed here at BF. I hope he is o.k.
As so often happens with 'knife knowledge', i think i have actually learned something definite, only to soon find out that what i have learned are just more questions.
kj

 

[Primble]

Thanks Primble for digging this interview, interesting stuff. The Cat. whittler is another eye candy.
Mike

Thanks Mike ! :thumbup:

Primble, thank you for posting the BRL interview. He is missed here at BF. I hope he is o.k.
As so often happens with 'knife knowledge', i think i have actually learned something definite, only to soon find out that what i have learned are just more questions.
kj

Yes - answers lead to more questions for me too, many times.

 

[roseskunk]

Here's a few jacks... Remington, Remington and Keen Kutter. I really don't know a thing about buying older knives, but I love them.

 

[roseskunk]

Ulster.

 

[CNoyes]

Mea Culpa.

I did not recall BRL stating that Rogers' "Indian Trail" was used on hunting knives. That changes things quite a bit.

BRL has said in the past there is no such thin as "worm grooved bone" or at least not as a named product. I believe he attributed that phrase to collector description.

The several Cattaraugus knives shown above have grooved bone handles that are, I think, significantly dissimilar to that found on Robeson knives.

I posted two examples above. Here are some more:

















I don't think the grooved bone on any of these Robesons is like that used by Cattaraugus.

Robeson may have made their own bone handles. I do not know. I do know that molded "jigged" synthetic handles were supplied to them by Rogers Manufacturing Co, suggesting the possibility of a previously established sales relationship re' jigged bone handles, as well.

 

[Primble]

Mea Culpa.

I did not recall BRL stating that Rogers' "Indian Trail" was used on hunting knives. That changes things quite a bit.

BRL has said in the past there is no such thin as "worm grooved bone" or at least not as a named product. I believe he attributed that phrase to collector description.

Nice Remingtons and Ulster roseskunk !

Charlie,

Overlooked is good with me. Beautiful Robeson examples !!! :thumbup::thumbup:

I guess we are back to square one on the jigging of the Robesons and Catts.

Maybe we can just assume the jigging was done by the manufacturers until we find out different. Primble logic.