"Old Knives"

kootenay joe, I apologize. I usually don't make *guesses* and I should know better. IIRC, Winchester stopped making knives in 1942. Knives had been made under contract for Winchester since then. Queen made some recently. I thought Utica had made some in the 60s but I may be mistaken--I'm getting old and forgetful. :) Winchesters are a difficult ID... at least for me. Simmons made some of the Winchester knives until they were bought out by Shapleigh in 1940. I posted 3 knives made by Simmons that I acquired recently and they don't look like your Winchester to me... especially the blades. A lot of companies were bought up by Winchester. Do you know who made the knife for Winchester? Or have more details?
 
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The Winchester marked cattle knife above is almost identical to a WARD'S marked knife I bought when I first started collecting in 1988.

I was told at the time the knife had been made for Ward's by Winchester.

The jigging on the two knives is the same.

Sorry, I do not have access to any photos of the Ward's knife; they exist, I just don't know where they are.
 
CNoyes said:
The Winchester marked cattle knife above is almost identical to a WARD'S marked knife I bought when I first started collecting in 1988.

I was told at the time the knife had been made for Ward's by Winchester.

The jigging on the two knives is the same.

Sorry, I do not have access to any photos of the Ward's knife; they exist, I just don't know where they are.
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Thank you, Charlie. I may be the thinking of the same knives. I've owned a few with stamps including Wards, Kutmaster, among others. The Kutmaster stamp led me to believe they were made by Utica. I'm foggy on the details.

Norcaldude said:
Recent acquisition for me.

If anybody has info on the history of this knife I'd love to hear it.

It's a beautiful knife.







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Those old Schrade Cut Co knives are a treat. It's a nice pattern also.

Brumby53 said:
All these arrived today - the Lot for under $50 US off the big auction site:p A bunch of 'project' knives that will keep me busy tidying them up. Camillus and Ranger USA Barlows (the Ranger looks to be unused) Both have solid bolsters - not the shell type... Two Camillus Campers one bone the other plastic... Two Colonial 3 Blade Electricians one has had very little use except for the Hawkbill blade... & a 2 Blade Imperial USA Electrician ... and a nice old German Boker Stockman with jigged Bone scales - had very little use.

I'm a very Happy Chappy!!!
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Nice haul!
 
Nice Winchester KJ the scale are fantastic. The Schrade whittler is nice, I love this pattern I owned 2 of them one with black handles, I think that the coping blade was modified to wharencliffe. An the 50$ bunch is great deal, thanks all for sharing.
Mike
 
Jake, Charlie & Mike, thanks for the help with my Winchester Cattle knife. I know of (and have many) of the Blue Grass, Queen made Winchester reproductions from late '80's early '90's but am not aware of any Utica made Winchester branded knives.
My Cattle knife came from an old fellow selling off his very nice Winchester collection so based on replies here i think it most likely is an original Winchester.
kj
 
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kootenay joe said:
....based on replies here i think it most likely is an original Winchester.
kj
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KJ, I do not profess to be an expert on anything, usually these days I have trouble remembering my name, but I do have a few Cattle patterns and a few Winchesters among them. I would say your example is 100% straight. IMHO:)
 
K. Joe, Charlie and Jake, just to join in on the discussion on that lovely Winchester Knife of KJ's, now please guys, I am FAR from an expert - I hope you dont mind me 'thinking aloud" about the discussions you guys have had concerning the knife...

Whenever I have seen (and owned many knives with Utica Bone) - The Utica Bone has most often has smaller jig work - there has been some variations dont get me wrong and I love the Utica Bone-...The Winchester Black box series have Utica Bone on them and when you get the Utica Bone in the Natural bright light - it shows its deep Beauty - but it is a very deep dark Bone - I wouldnt have taken THAT ( the type I described ) to be the same as the Bone on KJ's as Utica Bone - Jake Sir - is this why you had thought that KJ's Winchester was a Utica made knife?

If so? can you share with me what you are seeing in the jig work -as I look very very closely at the actual jig methods used on Bone- and would love to learn more my friend :) :thumbup:.

Here is a Cattle knife of mine- a WARDS knife, so I thought I would place this in for perhaps comparisons if it may be of any value-or I may be guiding you guys off to another direction?
I had a lot of trouble finding these photos hoping it would shed some light-OR create more discussion about KJ's lovely Winchester....









To me this Wards looks to have the Utica Bone I see on the late 70's and 80's Winchester Black box series.

Please forgive the older photos.
 
Brad, thank you for your reassurance on my Winchester. I know you are a "Cattle Man" (cows & knives) so your opinion is valued.
Duncan, very nice Wards and definitely different bone jigging.
kj
 
Duncan,

It's nice to see that knife again! I had bought that knife from Jason (baker2g) and I don't know much about it. I've seen a few others that are so similar that I suspect that they are made in the same factory even though they are marked Kutmaster or Henry Sears or something else. I'm foggy on the details... but I don't think I've ever heard a definitive story about these knives. For a while, there were quite a few auctions for these knives popping up from sellers such as "the dusty duck" guy.

Here is Henry Sears 1865 that I believe to be made in the same factory as the Wards knife. The bone on this one is a bit different.





This Henry Sears Eureka from the 1920s looks different (shown below). Although it's a different pattern, the blades do not look like they came from the same factory as the knife above. I suspect that the knife above is much newer. But I don't have much info on these newer knives. The knife below matches old catalog scans but I don't have references for the "newer" knives.



 
It's always good to have catalog scans for reference when ID'ing a knife but I don't have much from Winchester. I did find this "1930s" scan online but unfortunately I could not find an exact match. There are Winchester catalog reprints but I don't own them.

The 3950 (same model #) is on the right column. I don't know if it had also been advertised with different blades.

 
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Campbellclanman said:
......Here is a Cattle knife of mine- a WARDS knife, so I thought I would place this in for perhaps comparisons if it may be of any value-or I may be guiding you guys off to another direction?
I had a lot of trouble finding these photos hoping it would shed some light-OR create more discussion about KJ's lovely Winchester.
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Duncan, if that is the knife I think it is I have notes from research I did on it and they say it is most likely a Winchester. Inconclusive.
 
Regarding the Wards and Utica knives....

Some of the information or possibly misinformation may come from Parker et al (I think also sportcolbs). Here is an archived auction description. Take it with a grain of salt:

Hi I'm James Parker and I am offering this item for auction. Pay Pal gladly accepted. TN residents pay 9.25% state sales tax. Winning bidder pays $3.95 USPS Mail Shipping with Delivery Confirmation included in the Shipping price. Thanks.

This is a 1960s made Wards Genuine Bone Cattle Knife. The 3 blade Cattle knife is 3 5/8" closed. The master clip blade is tang stamped Wards Made in USA. The handles are Genuine Jigged Bone (cattle bone). The bolsters, liners and shield are made of nickel silver and pins are Genuine Brass. Metal has some light spotting on it from age but the knife has never been used or carried.
The Wards trademark was used for Montgomery Ward and Co and most were made by Kutmaster in Utica NY.
Please be sure to see the Supersize Photos as this is the EXACT item the winning bidder will recieve.
This fine 1960s issue Wards Cattle Knife is Great Unused and being offered at No Reserve. Thanks for your bids, we appreciate it.
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Here are photos of a few examples of the Utica and Wards knives....
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Jake, nice find on the Winchester Cat. page showing #3950. The blades are different. I'm often in this situation of having a vintage knife that seems never messed with, but the blades or shield differ from a catalogue illustration. I read in the BRL forum how these illustrators were very good at getting all details, proportions, etc. exactly as they are. My conclusion is that over the years different blades or shield were used but the pattern number stayed the same. This would not be true for Case but it might be for other manufacturers.
If you think my explanation of why knives do not always match catalogue picture is not correct, please post what you think is correct.
I also have a fine example of the #3009 Cattle knife, well 2 actually, one is Winchester and the other is E.C.Simmons Keen Kutter.
kj
 
ptradeco said:
Duncan, if that is the knife I think it is I have notes from research I did on it and they say it is most likely a Winchester. Inconclusive.
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I will add this to my comment. Many makers who did contract work did not use the same bone/jigging for contract knives. Quality was there but you have to dig deeper than the bone etc. to get an answer.
 
KJ,

I agree with BRL that the catalogs usually were pretty accurate. And I think pattern numbers usually refer to both the handle and type of blades. I don't know if they changed over time but it is possible. It can be a dangerous assumption since there are a lot of fakes. But it's important to keep it in perspective. As a collector, you need to know what you don't know and need to find out... as well as what you do know and why you know it. Hope that makes sense.

It's certainly much easier to make changes to catalogs now then it was back before computers. But I have seen changes. If you look at the 4 catalog scans that I posted in the discussion about Remington knives a few days ago, you see that the bolsters changed in the illustrations. I don't know if it was a change in manufacturing or a misprint.

I did an auction search for the 3950 and did find a photo that resembles the illustration of the 3950 in the 1930s catalog but the auction image is much too poor to see sufficient detail for a positive ID. Other examples would helpful.

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Winchesters are really WAAAAY above my playing ability. Goins' Encyclopedia even warns that the Winchester fakes can be difficult for an expert to identify. As a buyer, I would most likely use BRL's appraisal service before a major Winchester purchase. **All I really know is that I don't know enough about Winchesters!!** :o
 
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I have no idea of the value of authentic older Winchesters, but I have a feeling it is rather high. Kj, even if the cattle knife in question is not completely authentic (which most of us think it is), it is still a beautiful old knife at least the equal of a current GEC for quality, and as such is worth at least $100. If you got a really good deal on it, you probably got your money's worth, regardless.
 
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