"Old Knives"

You are a brave man, collecting those beautiful Celluloids, v_p!!!

Killer Walden Teardrop, Herder!!

Nice 40s collection, leghog!!

"Celluloid handles do represent an important and beautiful part of knife history and should be preserved as much as possible. " - Herder, c. 2016

Fortunately I was educated by some of the world's greatest knife enthusiasts :)

https://www.bladeforums.com/threads...erioration-out-gassing.1457872/#post-16780123

Which lead me to this article:

http://www.oregonknifeclub.org/celluloid_02.html

After reading everyone's forum posts last year and the article above, the nerdy engineer in me decided to do a lot of research into celluloid and came to some conclusions, the first conclusion is that the celluloid decomposition cannot be stopped and the second conclusion is that the decomposition rate CAN be controlled but the most important factor starts at the beginning in the making of the celluloid and how "stable" the final product is. Chemistry was far from an exact science back in 1868 when celluloid was first created, so the process to make celluloid literally makes or breaks how well the celluloid will stand up to the real world environment. Celluloid was / is made from combining cellulose nitrate (gun cotton or magician's "flash" paper) with a solvent called camphor, nitric acid, water and intense heat / pressure. Once the celluloid is formed and is removed from the high pressure, the decomposition process will start because although the celluloid seems perfectly solid, it needs that high pressure to stay in that original stable state. Under normal atmospheric pressure the celluloid will break down and start to release the products that put it together in the first place, namely nitric acid and water moisture. The release of those two by-products is what causes the steel blades to begin to rust. Obviously there is not much we can do about atmospheric pressure or how good the chemical composition of the celluloid was to begin with, but there are 4 other factors that can be controlled to help "slow" the "gassing": 1) Humidity, 2) temperature, 3) light and 4) storage.

Humidity, temperature and light are all pretty self explanatory... all three of them in excess will accelerate the decomposition process. The storage process is probably what catches the knife collection enthusiast off guard the most. As I mentioned previously, when the celluloid breaks down it releases nitric acid and moisture which are key ingredients for rusting metals. If you store a poorly made celluloid scale in a sealed container, then the nitric acid and moisture have no where to escape to. Now if you add a couple of other bone scaled knives in that same sealed container, the nitric acid and moisture does have a place to go and that is into formation of rust on your other blades; this is basically why knife owners say that the "gassing" spreads o_O Many knife collectors like to keep their collections in places they feel are "safe" from the open environment (knife rolls, containers, drawers, etc.) but in the case of celluloid knives, open air is actually your friend along with controlled light, heat and humidity :thumbsup: In other words, do not store any celluloid knives in sealed containers, drawers or other confined spaces and certainly keep them separated from any other knives, preferably in a "cool, dry place"... which I think is a song by the Traveling Wilbury's. :)

So when I buy a celluloid knife the first thing I look at are the signs around the bolster, shield and pins... if they look OK on a knife that is 50+ years old, then the odds are you have a pretty well made celluloid product. After that I store all of my celluloid knives (away from my other knives) on a cedar plank in my temperature/humidity controlled basement on the top shelf of a storage rack with no windows around. So for example, the Electric Cut Co knife I pictured earlier in this thread I bought over a year ago... you can see there is little to no shrinkage and a very slight discoloration on the bolster near the end of the scales so I feel pretty good that this celluloid is well made. In my reading I saw some particular manufacturer's names that were mentioned frequently, Hen & Rooster comes to mind and it may be that they just had a rushed or hurried process in making the celluloid. I have Ulster, NYKC, Schrade family and earlier Imperial celluloids that (knock on wood) I have not had issues to date. Of course I am new and in a year I might have a bunch of example pictures of "gassing" to post for other newbies :D. With that said, if you have a good celluloid product it IS decomposing right now... however, you can slow that down with proper storage.

Merry Christmas and let's slow down "gassing"!

Merry Christmas.jpg

-Kevin
 
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Thanks for the refresher course on Celluloid, v_p!!
It's nice to see you are all suited up and ready for winter!!!
:D:D:D
 
IMG_2603.PNG IMG_2604.PNG Great reading VP!!! Thank you for that because I had absolutely no knowledge of celluloid and its origins. I would still like a explanation and a picture of a celluloid knife after excessive gassing if anybody has any. I have in my mind that it is sort of melting away?????
Galvanic1882 - That is an absolutely beautiful Walden. I don't believe I've ever seen a knife outfitted like that one. AMAZING!!!!

And to keep the knives with an awl theme going here is an old Robeson HJ.
 
View attachment 817529 View attachment 817530 I would still like a explanation and a picture of a celluloid knife after excessive gassing if anybody has any. I have in my mind that it is sort of melting away?????

Gassing.jpg

Glad you liked the post LB, I had to sift through my notes last night so I could type up an educated reply this morning. Obviously I'm not an expert and it's just one of those things that happens. In my job I deal with a lot of aluminum, stainless steel, galvanized steel, carbon steel, etc. and corrosion is corrosion whether it's metal on metal, metal on concrete or just celluloid decomposing and creating the ingredients needed to rust the steel. Anytime you have acid and water near metal, it is a bad thing... it's just strange that celluloid breaks down on its own and promotes rusting of the metals around it under the right conditions. Eventually celluloid evolved into bakelite (by using formaldehyde solution instead of camphor) which is a much more stable polymer. I have a ton more information on celluloid which I will probably post in the forum link below. Just as a teaser... celluloid was originally created to replace elephant ivory... one of the first celluloid products made in bulk? Billiard balls that they eventually found out would explode upon impact :D

Let's continue any more celluloid discussion here:

https://www.bladeforums.com/threads/celluloid-knife-handle-deterioration-out-gassing.1457872/

- Kevin
 
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I really have been trying to get more antique knives because although I love traditional knives, it seems I have more new "traditional" style knives than I do antique ones. This is what I've got so far and I really like them. This thread is motivation to find more old knives. Great photographs everyone. I enjoy reading and learning about old knives.
 
Nice old knives everyone, see some great ones lately.

Picked up this nice old Cat this week, boys knife size,3 1/4", has had very little use and still shows some of original blade grinds, fantastic jigged worm groove bone. Originally I thought the shield being canted a little was a factory defect but then realized it was fitted so the tip of the shield fit in the worm groove.

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Duncan is hard to get past! I hear he has hobbit extras from The Ring filming guarding his knife hoard.

You never know when one will hop down and startle you!
 
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I really have been trying to get more antique knives because although I love traditional knives, it seems I have more new "traditional" style knives than I do antique ones. This is what I've got so far and I really like them. This thread is motivation to find more old knives. Great photographs everyone. I enjoy reading and learning about old knives.

Great pics by the way Jak3 and nice looking knives! :thumbsup:
 
I'm with Jeff, what a great afternoon at BF's. :thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup: Incredible knives coming fast and furious. Just wonderful eye candy.

R8shell & VP - those pictures are just hideous!!! :eek::eek::eek: I just never would have thought that they could deteriorate that badly. As they say " a picture is worth 1000 words".
 
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