"Old Knives"

[waynorth]

Whoa!! Charlie...... My friend....Just HOW do you do this????
Remarkable Knife!

I just keep my eyes peeled, and both ears to the ground!!

Thanks!!

 

[Campbellclanman]

My latest Arrival is ( to me) quite a neat Knife!

I saw this knife for sale, and having not seen the Stamping TOWNLEY METAL curved and above & HARDWARE Co above KANSAS CITY.
The Blade sure has had use- but still I would call this Knife respectable- I was so so impressed when I handled this Knife just how solid and how firm and snappy this Knife really is!

Searching through Bladeforums Charlie I see you have come across this Knife before...
https://www.bladeforums.com/threads/the-oregon-knife-show-for-2016.1380087/page-7#post-15995956
Charlie did you ever find out who did make that Spectacular Jigged Bone Boy's Knife? I would have gone immediately to Schrade looking at those stunning Scales...

The Walk and Talk of this old Ebony Beauty is simply superb- Snaps like you would not believe!

Iron Rat's-Tailed Bolsters, Brass Liners and pins, SOLID!!! absolutely no play- never has this Knife been messed with, Spines of the Blades match perfectly to the Springs.
Love the deep dense Ebony, the Shield, that neat long pull - it goes on...

Now I set out to see just who made this Knife....
I was lucky enough to have been given some information by a friend on Punch Patents, but before I went to this, I punched in the Patent number and found a direct hit, the Punch Patent was applied for April 6th, 1906 by a Mr Seymor Landon Alvord, ( Patent was granted October 16th 1906 ).
My friend who gave me the information on some Punches would most likely have slapped my face when I asked the Question "Who is / was Seymore Landon Alvord?
Well it turns out that Mr S.E Alvord was the Treasurer and Secretary of Empire Knife Co C.T IN 1890.

Interesting stuff on Seymore..( page 497 )

https://books.google.co.nz/books?id=-G4KAwAAQBAJ&pg=PA497&lpg=PA497&dq=seymore+landon+alvord,+EMPIRE+kNIVES&source=bl&ots=GOQKjUQPdn&sig=IJ1CL4SCVyE8ssDB5SXrfGUk7JQ&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwiykIGRh7reAhXGgI8KHZ0ZA40Q6AEwCHoECAUQAQ#v=onepage&q=seymore landon alvord, EMPIRE kNIVES&f=false

The Patent Information given to me confirmed this

Leaving me thinking of course this HJ is a product of the very famous and respected Empire Knife Co.

 

[waynorth]

A real treasure, Duncan!! That's definitely an Empire punch. At first glance, I thought the knife was a Camillus because of the shield. Here are some Empire HJs - lots of similarities. The rattail at the edge of the bolster, the blade grinds, etc.
Most likely an Empire contract knife, you have, with a rare marking!! Nice going!!

My Townley is definitely a Schrade, IMO.

 

[waynorth]

Here is why I thought Camillus!!

 

[mitch4ging]

Campbellclanman
waynorth
Great examples!
Time for another quest.

 

[herder]

My latest Arrival is ( to me) quite a neat Knife!

I saw this knife for sale, and having not seen the Stamping TOWNLEY METAL curved and above & HARDWARE Co above KANSAS CITY.
The Blade sure has had use- but still I would call this Knife respectable- I was so so impressed when I handled this Knife just how solid and how firm and snappy this Knife really is!

Searching through Bladeforums Charlie I see you have come across this Knife before...
https://www.bladeforums.com/threads/the-oregon-knife-show-for-2016.1380087/page-7#post-15995956
Charlie did you ever find out who did make that Spectacular Jigged Bone Boy's Knife? I would have gone immediately to Schrade looking at those stunning Scales...

The Walk and Talk of this old Ebony Beauty is simply superb- Snaps like you would not believe!

Iron Rat's-Tailed Bolsters, Brass Liners and pins, SOLID!!! absolutely no play- never has this Knife been messed with, Spines of the Blades match perfectly to the Springs.
Love the deep dense Ebony, the Shield, that neat long pull - it goes on...

Now I set out to see just who made this Knife....
I was lucky enough to have been given some information by a friend on Punch Patents, but before I went to this, I punched in the Patent number and found a direct hit, the Punch Patent was applied for April 6th, 1906 by a Mr Seymor Landon Alvord, ( Patent was granted October 16th 1906 ).
My friend who gave me the information on some Punches would most likely have slapped my face when I asked the Question "Who is / was Seymore Landon Alvord?
Well it turns out that Mr S.E Alvord was the Treasurer and Secretary of Empire Knife Co C.T IN 1890.

Interesting stuff on Seymore..( page 497 )

https://books.google.co.nz/books?id=-G4KAwAAQBAJ&pg=PA497&lpg=PA497&dq=seymore+landon+alvord,+EMPIRE+kNIVES&source=bl&ots=GOQKjUQPdn&sig=IJ1CL4SCVyE8ssDB5SXrfGUk7JQ&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwiykIGRh7reAhXGgI8KHZ0ZA40Q6AEwCHoECAUQAQ#v=onepage&q=seymore landon alvord, EMPIRE kNIVES&f=false

The Patent Information given to me confirmed this

Leaving me thinking of course this HJ is a product of the very famous and respected Empire Knife Co.

Campbellclanman, great old knife with a rare stamp!!! And a wonderful write up to go along with the knife.
Like waynorth suggested, that shield threw me for a bit as well since it was not a shield that Empire commonly used.
We certainly know that many firms contacted out to cutlery manufacturers to produce knives with their own names applied, and it would be interesting to know for certain if retailers requested certain features such as blade configurations, handle materials, or shield types, or if they were only given specific choice options from the manufacturers.
Enclosed is a catalog illustration from the first year of Empires punch knife (patent 1906) which shows your same model offered in stag (picbone) and ebony. The shield is obviously different and I have not seen the exact shield used on your model on another Empire knife.

View attachment 1014632

 

[herder]

Waynorth, wonderful examples of Empire and Camillus knives.
Every picture shown by anyone adds another piece of information to the database of overall knowledge.

 

[Misplaced Hillbilly]

Campbellclanman , it is very similar to the Challenge I have, same style shield. I believe due to a patent number on my punch waynorth identified it as being an Empire produced knife, either way back in this thread or on the harness jack thread. Wish the bolsters on mine was as pristine as yours. Super cool find!
Edit: just looked at mine, same patent number on the punch

 

[Campbellclanman]

Charlie - Thank You for your awesome feedback and information, I too was a bit perplexed with the Shield as I know that Empire more than often uses their identifiable shield, but I wouldnt have thought that anyone else could have made that knife with an Empire Punch, to have you come along and confirm this made my day! - Thank you Kind Sir! ( Oh man...those Camillus's )

Herder my friend, Thank you as well for your follow up too! When I was first looking at the knife in hand, I was comparing them to my other HJ's and Jacks- Camillus has that Shield alright and once I found the information about the Empire Punch I also went there in my mind and wondered if this was indeed a Customer request - or a wee thing Empire did to have a contracted Knife that wasnt struck with their Empire Stamp - that perhaps a small and interesting thing Empire did to change the way a knife looked that did not have THE Stamp?

Misplaced - Thats a great HJ matey- I too have some early Challenge Jacks- as well as an HJ- so now Im going hunting because I didnt come across my Challenge yesterday afternoon when I was comparing - I want to see the Punch on that Challenge now!!! mmmmmm!

 

[waynorth]

Duncan and herder, I have gone through many of my Empire pictures, and have yet to find that shield on one. I have pictures from the very early West Winsted days as well as more recent ones.
But Empire put different shield on knives branded different from their own,
such as Diamond (<D-E>) shields on Diamond Edge knives.
Empire also sold punches to other cutleries, evidenced by letters between cutleries in possession of my friend Tom in Winsted, CT!!
But there is too much evidence that your knife was made by Empire, Duncan. I refer again to the blade grinds, rivets, rattails etc.

 

[herder]

Duncan and herder, I have gone through many of my Empire pictures, and have yet to find that shield on one. I have pictures from the very early West Winsted days as well as more recent ones.
But Empire put different shield on knives branded different from their own,
such as Diamond (<D-E>) shields on Diamond Edge knives.
Empire also sold punches to other cutleries, evidenced by letters between cutleries in possession of my friend Tom in Winsted, CT!!
But there is too much evidence that your knife was made by Empire, Duncan. I refer again to the blade grinds, rivets, rattails etc.

Yes, definitely made by Empire. (with a secret stash of "other" shields)

 

[Campbellclanman]

Charlie thank you.
Interesting to see that Punches were sold to other companies, which would lead you down the road towards Camillus if you were to discount the Empire theory, but I agree with you Charlie- I’m thinking Empire - especially when comparing to yours.
Many many thanks.

 

[waynorth]

Here is some interesting Empire history. Some time in the late 1800s, Empire had some display boards, and they photographed them on to glass negative plates. Stored in the Winsted Historical Society, my friend Tom borrowed them to have them printed, some time around the year 2000! (He had an aunt in the historical society!) When the plates were returned to a storage shed, a heavy snow storm collapsed the shed, and destroyed the glass plates!! History lost, except for Tom's prints!!
Hmmm, the pics I have are too large to post!! When I figure out how to shrink them, I will post them!

 

[herder]

Some great looking knives!

My most recent, just can't figure out a date timeline for this one, hope it meets the criteria.

Missed this one???
Nice German example, mitch4ging, which probably dates to early post WWII era.
A classic pattern that was offered by many German cutlers.

 

[mitch4ging]

Missed this one???
Nice German example, mitch4ging, which probably dates to early post WWII era.
A classic pattern that was offered by many German cutlers.

Thank you for the information! I had a hard time finding solid information on it, and it's in such great shape!

 

[Campbellclanman]

Wow- Charlie- pass on our thanks to Tom please Sir for taking the time to unknowingly save such important information!!
Love to see that when you post it up!

 

[LongBlade]

My latest Arrival is ( to me) quite a neat Knife!

I saw this knife for sale, and having not seen the Stamping TOWNLEY METAL curved and above & HARDWARE Co above KANSAS CITY.
The Blade sure has had use- but still I would call this Knife respectable- I was so so impressed when I handled this Knife just how solid and how firm and snappy this Knife really is!

Searching through Bladeforums Charlie I see you have come across this Knife before...
https://www.bladeforums.com/threads/the-oregon-knife-show-for-2016.1380087/page-7#post-15995956
Charlie did you ever find out who did make that Spectacular Jigged Bone Boy's Knife? I would have gone immediately to Schrade looking at those stunning Scales...

The Walk and Talk of this old Ebony Beauty is simply superb- Snaps like you would not believe!

Iron Rat's-Tailed Bolsters, Brass Liners and pins, SOLID!!! absolutely no play- never has this Knife been messed with, Spines of the Blades match perfectly to the Springs.
Love the deep dense Ebony, the Shield, that neat long pull - it goes on...

Now I set out to see just who made this Knife....
I was lucky enough to have been given some information by a friend on Punch Patents, but before I went to this, I punched in the Patent number and found a direct hit, the Punch Patent was applied for April 6th, 1906 by a Mr Seymor Landon Alvord, ( Patent was granted October 16th 1906 ).
My friend who gave me the information on some Punches would most likely have slapped my face when I asked the Question "Who is / was Seymore Landon Alvord?
Well it turns out that Mr S.E Alvord was the Treasurer and Secretary of Empire Knife Co C.T IN 1890.

Interesting stuff on Seymore..( page 497 )

https://books.google.co.nz/books?id=-G4KAwAAQBAJ&pg=PA497&lpg=PA497&dq=seymore+landon+alvord,+EMPIRE+kNIVES&source=bl&ots=GOQKjUQPdn&sig=IJ1CL4SCVyE8ssDB5SXrfGUk7JQ&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwiykIGRh7reAhXGgI8KHZ0ZA40Q6AEwCHoECAUQAQ#v=onepage&q=seymore landon alvord, EMPIRE kNIVES&f=false

The Patent Information given to me confirmed this

Leaving me thinking of course this HJ is a product of the very famous and respected Empire Knife Co.

That’s a beauty Duncan - cool score ...

A real treasure, Duncan!! That's definitely an Empire punch. At first glance, I thought the knife was a Camillus because of the shield. Here are some Empire HJs - lots of similarities. The rattail at the edge of the bolster, the blade grinds, etc.
Most likely an Empire contract knife, you have, with a rare marking!! Nice going!!

My Townley is definitely a Schrade, IMO.
View attachment 1014436 View attachment 1014437 View attachment 1014438

Sweet Empire HJs Charlie ... and those Camillus are really nice as well

View attachment 1014654
Campbellclanman , it is very similar to the Challenge I have, same style shield. I believe due to a patent number on my punch waynorth identified it as being an Empire produced knife, either way back in this thread or on the harness jack thread. Wish the bolsters on mine was as pristine as yours. Super cool find!
Edit: just looked at mine, same patent number on the punch

Awesome Challenge HJ ... the jigged bone puts it over the top!!!

 

[veitsi_poika]

View attachment 1014654
Campbellclanman , it is very similar to the Challenge I have, same style shield. I believe due to a patent number on my punch waynorth identified it as being an Empire produced knife, either way back in this thread or on the harness jack thread. Wish the bolsters on mine was as pristine as yours. Super cool find!
Edit: just looked at mine, same patent number on the punch

This knife looks just like Duncan's knife, only in bone and even with the Empire punch. That's a beauty MH!

 

[veitsi_poika]

My latest Arrival is ( to me) quite a neat Knife!

I saw this knife for sale, and having not seen the Stamping TOWNLEY METAL curved and above & HARDWARE Co above KANSAS CITY.
The Blade sure has had use- but still I would call this Knife respectable- I was so so impressed when I handled this Knife just how solid and how firm and snappy this Knife really is!

Searching through Bladeforums Charlie I see you have come across this Knife before...
https://www.bladeforums.com/threads/the-oregon-knife-show-for-2016.1380087/page-7#post-15995956
Charlie did you ever find out who did make that Spectacular Jigged Bone Boy's Knife? I would have gone immediately to Schrade looking at those stunning Scales...

The Walk and Talk of this old Ebony Beauty is simply superb- Snaps like you would not believe!

Iron Rat's-Tailed Bolsters, Brass Liners and pins, SOLID!!! absolutely no play- never has this Knife been messed with, Spines of the Blades match perfectly to the Springs.
Love the deep dense Ebony, the Shield, that neat long pull - it goes on...

Now I set out to see just who made this Knife....
I was lucky enough to have been given some information by a friend on Punch Patents, but before I went to this, I punched in the Patent number and found a direct hit, the Punch Patent was applied for April 6th, 1906 by a Mr Seymor Landon Alvord, ( Patent was granted October 16th 1906 ).
My friend who gave me the information on some Punches would most likely have slapped my face when I asked the Question "Who is / was Seymore Landon Alvord?
Well it turns out that Mr S.E Alvord was the Treasurer and Secretary of Empire Knife Co C.T IN 1890.

Interesting stuff on Seymore..( page 497 )

https://books.google.co.nz/books?id=-G4KAwAAQBAJ&pg=PA497&lpg=PA497&dq=seymore+landon+alvord,+EMPIRE+kNIVES&source=bl&ots=GOQKjUQPdn&sig=IJ1CL4SCVyE8ssDB5SXrfGUk7JQ&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwiykIGRh7reAhXGgI8KHZ0ZA40Q6AEwCHoECAUQAQ#v=onepage&q=seymore landon alvord, EMPIRE kNIVES&f=false

The Patent Information given to me confirmed this

Leaving me thinking of course this HJ is a product of the very famous and respected Empire Knife Co.

Beauty Duncan! As you say, stunner

 

[waynorth]

View attachment 1014654
Campbellclanman , it is very similar to the Challenge I have, same style shield. I believe due to a patent number on my punch waynorth identified it as being an Empire produced knife, either way back in this thread or on the harness jack thread. Wish the bolsters on mine was as pristine as yours. Super cool find!
Edit: just looked at mine, same patent number on the punch

I forgot about that knife (and its shield!!), MH!! It looks like it was made in the same place as Duncan's!! More proof that Empire had a secret stash of "other" shields!!